Is laydown even an option?

Submitted by : MadJukes

PokerStars Game #39175931262: Holdem No Limit (€0.05/€0.10 EUR) - 2010/02/03 13:27:08 CT [2010/02/03 14:27:08 ET]
Table Euneus IV 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: aprilbro (€13.58 in chips)
Seat 2: MadJukes (€11.70 in chips)
Seat 3: ELLAS 77 (€10.04 in chips)
Seat 4: serres1510 (€14.82 in chips)
Seat 5: BoLe_SO (€18.85 in chips)
Seat 6: BarneyKing (€4.62 in chips)
BoLe_SO: posts small blind €0.05
BarneyKing: posts big blind €0.10

Holecards
Dealt to MadJukes
aprilbro: raises €0.20 to €0.30
MadJukes: calls €0.30
ELLAS 77: folds
serres1510: folds
BoLe_SO: folds
BarneyKing: folds

Flop (Pot : $0.00)

   
aprilbro: checks
MadJukes: bets €0.60
aprilbro: calls €0.60

Turn (Pot : $0.00)

   
aprilbro: bets €0.10
MadJukes: raises €1.35 to €1.45
aprilbro: raises €1.35 to €2.80
MadJukes: calls €1.35

River (Pot : $0.00)

   
aprilbro: bets €4.20
MadJukes: raises €3.80 to €8 and is all-in

32?

If he has a boat then you should fold. Same thing with ace high flush (even king high when you think about it). But if you have him beat, then getting it allin is a good result, but only if you win.

T.T

lol.

vague answer much?

Well, since he raised pre, I didnt count 33 or 66 in his range, especially since he's UTG. Turn 3-- didnt really see anything that he could have. Flush draw? Making a play on me? QK/QA/QT? Then river completed my flush and he pots it. Really confusing...

some people raise all pocket pairs UTG in 6 max.

So what's your play in this hand? and why? :S

[x] dumb villain
[x] prolly fish
[x] 3rd nut flush
[ ] 1st/2nd nut flush in his range (no one is going to rebluff nut draw once board pairs on turn)
[x] only lose to boats
[x] limited combonation of boats

But then what could he possibly be betting with on river? Whole hand makes no sense x_x

Edit: AA and KK seem to be able to take this line, if he likes slowplaying.

MadJukes, you really seem to have trouble coming up with reasonable ranges for people (not just this thread, and it's something that takes time to learn). You are fine with noting what they do, but then the conclusions you draw from their actions make no sense. You should work on this, because you seem to try and analyze things based on false precepts.


In this hand he can have QQ, 66, 33 and he probably does because no one ever does c/c, dink/3bet, lead as a bluff. That said he can have very strangely played lower flushes and fishy KK/AA spazzouts so you should call river and raising probably isn't too bad because you have a flush and this is nl10.

on the turn he is telling you he has the ultimate nuts.

lol @ minbet turn reraise, hes got the nuts

pretty sure this guy flop a set that turn into a boat on the turn.

That line scream this at NL10. 90% of player will slowplay a set on the flop no matter what the board look like.

Then on turn they will raise (and yea mainly min raise).

Normally with that line they shove river instantly tho so I dont know.

I would not be surprise to see 66 33 in this spot. QQ is less likely since u have one.

As played I would only call the river and see what he have.

33 and 66 UTG raise? I've almost always seen a limp/call from UTG low pocket pairs. QQ I considered but since I have a Q, the chance he has 2 other Q's is very low. Since he's 24/16, he's not playing any 2 and probably raising 2 broadways/88+pocket pairs...ya?

Definitely has 33, 66, and QQ in his range PF. The turn raise looks like a boat; however, he could have some random 3, AQ, lower FD(probably just calls with this), KK, or AA. I think you should fold the turn; however the river play seems fine, because you're beating all of his spazz hands and he's very likely to call your river raise with those hands anyways.

its 6-max. who the hell doesnt raise all pp from UTG?

anyway just allin river, dont overthink

On February 03 2010 17:05 MadJukes wrote: 33 and 66 UTG raise? I've almost always seen a limp/call from UTG low pocket pairs. QQ I considered but since I have a Q, the chance he has 2 other Q's is very low. Since he's 24/16, he's not playing any 2 and probably raising 2 broadways/88+pocket pairs...ya?

You can't really put him on a such definite range based on VPIP/PFR

This is why we pay attention to what people raise from certain positions.

He might play 16 % of hands from all position - and then his range is huge.

He might play 8 % of his hands UTG, which can be 22+, AQo+, KQs... who the hell knows.

All pairs is about 5,4 % of all possible starting hands.

i think this hand is played fine.

As played i say ship river is good. He prob calls with AQ - KQ. You coulda also call but you didnt have that mush left behind si i would ship it also

On February 03 2010 16:31 joLin wrote: on the turn he is telling you he has the ultimate nuts.

ive learned the hard way to believe ppl when they tell me this on the turn.

fold turn definately
as played, call river. shoving is a spew

I think that river raise is fine just because this is nl10, but villain is showing a lot of strength with that turn minbet/raise.

On February 03 2010 17:05 MadJukes wrote: I've almost always seen a limp/call from UTG low pocket pairs.

All competent players and tons of fish raise any pocket pair from utg in 6-max.

JoLin and Sicks Macks have it spot on here imo....

You seem to be playing mostly level 0 in this hand with some really ill based level 1 thoughts. Just because we hit a flush on the river doesn't mean we just jam. We seem to have taken no consideration as to what he really has here. Saying sets/flushes/KQ+ and whatever else you listed is pretty ridiculous imo. Nobody plays KQ or AQ like this, and why would he pot the river when it's clear that a draw is a huge part of your range if he just has TPTK. I don't even really think many low flushes are part of his range either. It seems more polarized to boats/maybe some A3 type hand and air if he bluffs, also could have Ax flush. This river call is more of a bluff catcher than it is a shove for value assuming he's not a spew fish.

Also if anything, his pf stats indicate he is a more competent player so why would he do this with a hand like QT/KQ etc? The ranges you are assigning people isn't close either, you need to completely open them up. Saying he never has a low PP here is absolutely absurd, and like I said hands like A3s are easily in his range as well.

"I think that river raise is fine just because this is nl10, but villain is showing a lot of strength with that turn minbet/raise."
- This is also a semi ignorant statement. Granted it is nl10, but that just means there are more spewy fish at the tables as a generality. If this opponent isn't one, which by seeing his PTR he's absolutely not, then this is a horrible idea. There are plenty of competent weak/tight nits at 10nl as well who would never take this line with a low flush or KQ. Villain is showing a lot of strength with that turn minbet/raise - yes you have it absolutely correct, which means he doesn't show up with mid range hands here.

the problem is hes telling us he has what HE percieves to be the nuts

a player taking a line like minbet/minraise on the turn could believe QK is the nuts here so id probably ship it in

no reads im super excited about river and i shipshove almost everytime

to the people saying OMG HE HAS A BOAT ... you need history with an opponent to make claims like that

On February 04 2010 11:36 Critterer wrote: the problem is hes telling us he has what HE percieves to be the nuts a player taking a line like minbet/minraise on the turn could believe QK is the nuts here so id probably ship it in

have you ever seen a hand like KQ when looking ppl up in this spot? bcuz i never ever have.

I think shoving is like lighting money on fire but whatever

i love villian´s line

min bet in this pot + re-raise = ultimate nuts like 95% of the time

On February 03 2010 14:58 NewbSaibot wrote: If he has a boat then you should fold. Same thing with ace high flush (even king high when you think about it). But if you have him beat, then getting it allin is a good result, but only if you win.

Yes if somehow you know exactly what was his hand you should make the specific move according to it. How could i have been so blind.

i raise all pp's...I think most do in 6 max...

shove is just incredibly bad poker, you could argue for whatever point before that but the shove on the river is a ridiculously huge leak that should be addressed before anything else

call the river

when people say "just ship it in it's nl10", don't listen to that. that kind of mentality will lose you a lot of money, unless you have an overpair vs a fish or something

his turn minraise is just screaming strength, and he is not taking this line with some random queen.

results?]

On February 05 2010 09:41 Into Infinity wrote: when people say "just ship it in it's nl10", don't listen to that. that kind of mentality will lose you a lot of money, unless you have an overpair vs a fish or something his turn minraise is just screaming strength, and he is not taking this line with some random queen. results?]

I think I'm really going to take that and use it. I've been playing much more "ship it with any flush/boat" style because several people on LP tell me it's always the +EV move at NL2 to NL25 in places that I would sometimes lay them down.

Results:

+ Show Spoiler +

Thanks to everyone who commented on this hand-- it gave me a plethora of insight on how this hand can be viewed.