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k4ir0s   Canada. Sep 18 2018 03:38. Posts 3353
A few years ago I quit poker to enroll in a full-time 2 year web development program. I had to suck up a lot of pride to go back to college in my late 20s. The college then offered me a co-op, and my hopes for breaking into the web field was high. But once my time ended there I found myself back at the poker tables, again - this time live poker. It's easier to grind live poker than it is to hustle my way through an entry level position in an expensive city. Most of last year I played live with success, then I dedicated a few months to online until I realized that I no longer have the necessary skills to make a good living off it. To be honest, I never studied hard enough and I never put enough hours in. It's no wonder I failed. I forgot about the crippling loneliness and isolation of playing online poker, which made the challenge more difficult for me.

In hindsight, I should have stuck to live poker - I would have had more money. But live poker is excruciating boring and the variance is wild. The reason I keep coming back to poker is that it offers me FREEDOM, and there's a lot less freedom in live poker. I was basically grinding at the casino from 9 to 5. I might as well get a job that offers me more opportunity, growth, and freedom in the coming years.


So what do I do from here?..


Its been a year and a half since I did web development work, so I forgot a lot of the things I learned. And it doesn't help that it's a field that is constantly changing. So I have a lot to learn before I'm employable. I'm considering enrolling in a 'coding bootcamp'. The cost is 10k CAD, its full-time, lasts 3 months, and they help you get an entry level position. If I choose to do it I'll have to slum it in Toronto, because it's one hell of an expensive city to live in, and I won't be earning money during the program. Hell, I'll have to slum it even when I do earn money. The starting salary will be ~45-65k, which is dirt in Toronto. The cost alone for a 1 bedroom apartment is $1800 minimum in a decent location. The good news is that as long as I stay motivated my salary should rapidly increase over the years, but I have a long way to go until then.


The way I see it I have no other option. Sure, I'm able to go to university and work on a 4 year degree, but I'm not willing to spend 4 years living with roommates and eating ramen noodles.. No, I need money. I'll continue playing live for a month or two, then I'll likely enroll in the bootcamp program. The thought of living in a new city and the fact that I never worked a full time job in my life is causing me a lot of stress and anxiety. A few months ago I wrote somewhere on this site that "I would rather die than fail" (fail at poker). Apparently my instinct to survive is stronger than my false pride.

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I dont know what a dt drop is. Is it a wrestling move? -OlyLast edit: 18/09/2018 15:54

uiCk   Canada. Sep 18 2018 04:44. Posts 3516

How commited are you to TO? I would look into a different city, mtl for example you can live well solo, for 40k a month depending on your spending habits. We got poker too.

I don't know what you want from life, but ive been through programming road in my early 20s and from my experience, unless you love it, its though market.
There are plenty of employment opportunities in canada, specifically in specialized trades, that can be achived faster then academic roads and require less perpetual change in skills. Anything from doing some under 1 year certificate for some specialized IT work (tech support) to getting a truck driving licencse.

Depends what you are after, if you are driven looking for opportunity or looking for stability and comfort. If you are the former, i would start building a portfolio of some programs/websites/apps (whatever you specialized in), maybe look into some online certificate from oracle/Microsoft, grind the job hunt for entry level, get some experience, move up or move out to better opportunity with new found experience, etc.

I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike TysonLast edit: 18/09/2018 05:00

k4ir0s   Canada. Sep 18 2018 04:52. Posts 3353


  On September 18 2018 03:44 uiCk wrote:
How commited are you to TO? I would look into a different city, mtl for example you can live well solo, for 40k a month depending on your spending habits. We got poker too.



You're right, Montreal would be better. I love that city (in the summer). Although, my GF lives here, so it's not an option for me. And the poker here is better - more tourists and session rake, but it's not like I'll be playing much anyways.

I dont know what a dt drop is. Is it a wrestling move? -OlyLast edit: 18/09/2018 04:53

uiCk   Canada. Sep 18 2018 05:03. Posts 3516

Edited my post with some more rambling

GL, wouldnt stress, good time to be looking for a career in Canada, if you're in your 20s and 30s and are above average intelligence. can't comment on living with the TO and Van real estate markets, but solid everywhere else

I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike TysonLast edit: 18/09/2018 05:05

bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Sep 18 2018 06:55. Posts 8616

How much are you making from live poker? What does your GF do?

Using $1800 as min. rent feels kind of lazy to me, there's a ton of places in Toronto in decent locations on Airbnb with great reviews under $1k (way under in some cases). Unless sharing a kitchen and bathroom with 1 other person who you'll probably never see anyway really seems like that much of a hardship.

In any case good luck with everything

Truck-Crash LifeLast edit: 18/09/2018 06:55

NewbSaibot   United States. Sep 18 2018 07:37. Posts 4822

hah, I didnt know I had an alt account on LP to post under!

listening to edzwoo has made u a nit... *sigh* - Zalfor 

PuertoRican   United States. Sep 18 2018 09:10. Posts 11143

Good luck with your future career.

Rekrul is a newb 

Defrag   Poland. Sep 18 2018 09:22. Posts 4680

Myself, I would do it. Im looking from perspective of someone that's in poker world for 13,5 years now.

Looking from my position playing poker for lifetime is close to impsosible to sustain motivation/learning rate and excitement, plus its too unstable/swingy to keep on living without nerves, not to mention the changes in games/law alone could screw you completetly. Sure good and professional poker players make a very decent living, but long term (10+ years) its super hard to maintain motivation and a ton of people quit for less profitable, but stable jobs. I could name 10 people from this forum right now who made a small fortune playing poker in their 20's but still moved away from poker after that.

If you are less then 30 year old I wouldnt think twice and hit the bootcamp. 3 months is nothing to have a secure option for a job that will sustain you in case of mind change, especially since there is such a huge growth potential in the future where you can develop to the point of well paid job that has a huge potential in the future - programists will never go out of the job in the future, as world is moving more and more towards having everything connected to computers, including frigging fridges with flat screens.

Just try to think long term what is best for you and make you own decision. You have to be sure that you will be happy and satisifed with the job you would want to take instead of poker though, or you will be always looking back.

 Last edit: 18/09/2018 09:23

RiKD    United States. Sep 18 2018 15:41. Posts 5037

$65k is probably doable with $1,800 rent. Anything less than that you might have to "slum" it with bigredhoss's suggestions. I have heard food is more expensive in Ontario and other stuff as well. You may just have to come to the realization that you are going to have to "slum" it for awhile. Poker is still useful if it is buying adequate food, shelter, clothing, etc. but it goes against right livelihood. Finding something else seems ideal for the reasons you mentioned (loneliness, isolation, 9-5 grind, etc.). I am no expert on the road ahead besides to say you will likely have to let go of some of your attachments to be more content. You might have to have roommates and eat "peasant" food. Poker is likely habitual at this point. Going the bootcamp route will not be easy but if I were to bet I would bet that it will be more fruitful.


hiems   United States. Sep 19 2018 02:17. Posts 1455

$1800 is alot. I don't think 65k is enough for $1800. Itd be financially retarded imo. Max I'd say would be $1300.

Also ideally you should have some investments that earn a theoretical ~4 to 5% return or whatever to offset spending on rent.


Santafairy   Korea (South). Sep 19 2018 04:26. Posts 1309

going by the 33% of your income rule $1800 is perfect for 65k

It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen 

LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Sep 19 2018 12:22. Posts 14590

lol
I pay $320 rent including utilities xD
Never understood how can you be a pro poker player at some point and not use that to travel and move to a cheap country for at least a few months.

I moved from UK to Czech Republic for Poker and let me tell you it's just so much easier to play online when you're not hemorrhaging money away through fixed costs, there's no point even trying when your rent alone is $1800

NL5 Grinder 4LifeLast edit: 19/09/2018 12:22

hiems   United States. Sep 19 2018 17:32. Posts 1455


  On September 19 2018 11:22 LemOn[5thF] wrote:
lol
I pay $320 rent including utilities xD
Never understood how can you be a pro poker player at some point and not use that to travel and move to a cheap country for at least a few months.

I moved from UK to Czech Republic for Poker and let me tell you it's just so much easier to play online when you're not hemorrhaging money away through fixed costs, there's no point even trying when your rent alone is $1800



i'm not a poker pro, but i think about traveling/living in cheap countries literally multiple times every single day. lots of people fantasize about going expat/digital nomad/online poker pro. few do. why? because in general despite the lower cost of living, its alot more difficult to make money overseas. you always mention how your expenses are so low, but really how much do you make playing poker? how much has your net worth increased during this time?

the exception is few that are able to make great money while living overseas. for the rest, i think basically it comes down to live now vs save for later. personally id rather not do the expat thing while being financially on the fringe/not increasing my networth.


LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Sep 19 2018 22:01. Posts 14590

How is it harder to make money exactly?
You already have an income as an online poker player, doesn't matter where you do it really besides the first couple weeks of moving + acclimation.
If you make $40k in poker in the US why'd it drop when you move to Malta for example?
And your overhead will be much lower unless you go full tard holiday mode and spent shitloads more than you did back home.

And I checked to get from Toronto to Prague cost $600 heh
And it IS living for now, more so than if you don't do it especially if you are single and never travelled wouldn't you agree?


A lot of the successful pros have moved early on like Linus Ike etc etc. I don't see any reason not to do it besides fear when we're talking about giving poker a real shot and a medium time period.


I play small-midstakes now
But I was a micro pro partying it up for like 2.5years here playing NL16-NL25 :D
There's no way in hell I could do that in the UK, moving was the only option if I wanted to give poker a shot, and I did.

NL5 Grinder 4LifeLast edit: 19/09/2018 22:02

hiems   United States. Sep 19 2018 22:57. Posts 1455

You keep saying "I play small-midstakes now" but im not sure if you realize that pretty much means nothing. I mean, what does that mean exactly?What kind of volume are you playing? What's your winrate? Whats the hourly at? How much do you make/expect to make? For how long have you been making this? What is your bankroll? What is your networth? I mean those are pretty personal questions and I wouldn't answer them but i bring it up because you seem to keep bringing up this point about "playing small-midstakes" now as some sort of receipt that legitimizes your career. Not trying to be a dick but LP needs more than that to be like wow lemon made it at poker.

You're right in the sense that its the only way to give yourself a real shot in poker, not just because the expenses are low but because you really have to push yourself and play the tougher games on pokerstars at some point. Back when I had a go at poker I should have somehow tried to fit this into my life but I never got the chance to. I also probably had a two month window at the end of 2017/start of 2018 but I missed the window.

I mean that it's easier to make money normally, in a first world country (be normal in the first world vs being a digital nomad). It's not even close for most people. I'm single and I have enough saved to try and do the whole poker thing comfortably right now. If I wait a couple years though, I can do what you are doing while not having to work or play poker at all, live in the nicest areas, spend money on whatever, party every day, etc and probably never run out of money.

 Last edit: 19/09/2018 22:58

Defrag   Poland. Sep 19 2018 23:31. Posts 4680

btw regarding cost of rent, I've heard quite a while ago that you shouldnt spend more then 1 weeks income on monthly rent. As dumb as it seems working 1/4 of the time for the space to live in seems as reasonable as it gets if you dont have your own place.


RiKD    United States. Sep 20 2018 01:34. Posts 5037


  On September 19 2018 21:01 LemOn[5thF] wrote:
How is it harder to make money exactly?
You already have an income as an online poker player, doesn't matter where you do it really besides the first couple weeks of moving + acclimation.
If you make $40k in poker in the US why'd it drop when you move to Malta for example?
And your overhead will be much lower unless you go full tard holiday mode and spent shitloads more than you did back home.

And I checked to get from Toronto to Prague cost $600 heh
And it IS living for now, more so than if you don't do it especially if you are single and never travelled wouldn't you agree?


A lot of the successful pros have moved early on like Linus Ike etc etc. I don't see any reason not to do it besides fear when we're talking about giving poker a real shot and a medium time period.


I play small-midstakes now
But I was a micro pro partying it up for like 2.5years here playing NL16-NL25 :D
There's no way in hell I could do that in the UK, moving was the only option if I wanted to give poker a shot, and I did.



It was harder for me. You don't have the setup you do "at home." "At home" I had a really nice desktop and a 30'' monitor and a 24'' monitor and a great mouse and etc etc etc. I had a nice desk chair. In Buenos Aires, for example, they were limited in electronics and they were quite a bit more price wise. It was difficult getting electronics into the country. So, I was playing on some ok Acer laptop in sketchy chairs on like tabletops trying to 8-12 table on sketchy internet. My Macbook Pro I could never get the mouse sensitivity how I wanted it.

My income increased when I went to Malta. Beautiful country, nice way of living and I was living with very good poker players. It has its downsides too for sure. Those were the days. Having stacks of purple Euros in my suitcase just not giving a fuck. On the other hand I was thinking today that that was some version of hell.


bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Sep 20 2018 06:49. Posts 8616


  On September 19 2018 11:22 LemOn[5thF] wrote:
lol
I pay $320 rent including utilities xD
Never understood how can you be a pro poker player at some point and not use that to travel and move to a cheap country for at least a few months.

I moved from UK to Czech Republic for Poker and let me tell you it's just so much easier to play online when you're not hemorrhaging money away through fixed costs, there's no point even trying when your rent alone is $1800



I've spent a lot of time living outside the US during the past decade (currently living in Colombia). Personally a huge fan of living abroad esp. when you have the opportunity to arbitrage first-world salary with cheaper location cost of living. That said I think there's a bunch of obvious reasons why some people would choose not to.

-OP specifically said he has a girlfriend living in Canada.

-Some people have friends/family they don't want to leave.

-Some people simply prefer the lifestyle in whichever expensive country they're from, and are sufficiently successful at poker that the cost of living difference just isn't that big of a deal.

-I know you specifically said 'pro poker player', but obviously a lot of people have concerns about the future profitability of online poker

-Some people want to do something more meaningful / interesting (this isn't a shot at poker players btw, if I knew I could make $100k+/year playing poker and knew there was minimal chance of that decreasing over the next 10-15 years, I would probably be doing that).

Truck-Crash Life 

LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Sep 20 2018 10:35. Posts 14590

Well yeah I understand family gf etc.
but when you pay just rent of $1800 are in a large country where you need a car so your fixed costs will be like what $4k/month?
I don't see you having a choice if you wanted to give online poker an actual shot, learn again and grind, it's seems close to impossible to actually make it and play fulltime from there

NL5 Grinder 4Life 

hiems   United States. Sep 20 2018 15:56. Posts 1455


  On September 20 2018 09:35 LemOn[5thF] wrote:
Well yeah I understand family gf etc.
but when you pay just rent of $1800 are in a large country where you need a car so your fixed costs will be like what $4k/month?
I don't see you having a choice if you wanted to give online poker an actual shot, learn again and grind, it's seems close to impossible to actually make it and play fulltime from there



Yes let's use a $2200/month car budget.

@bigredhoss

which city? also what are you doing there?

 Last edit: 20/09/2018 16:04

 
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