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2/5 live, FD facing 3bet

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NewbSaibot   United States. Mar 04 2016 09:52. Posts 4744

Villain just sat down with $500. About 10 hands ago he iso'd from the button vs 4 limpers to $30 with Qd Jc, all 4 players call. Flop came Q46hhh and he checks it through. Turn is a blank and he fires about 1/2 pot, gets 1 call. River bricks and he checks behind and wins. Somewhere after that he lost whatever he made because he's back at ~$500 this hand.

On to the hand....

3 limps and hero ($800) calls Q9dd on the button
V (~$500) checks BB

Flop ($25) 8c 7d 4d
V bets $30
3 calls
Hero raises to $120
V tanks, glances at hero's stack about 3 times, looks at everyone else, never makes eye contact, then 3bets allin.
Everyone snap folds to hero

I folded, but just making sure there isnt any reason to be calling expecting a worse draw. Not sure how to read a villain who raises QJ and then checks back top pair in a multiway pot because he's afraid of the draw getting there, but then jams allin on a drawy board beyond the obvious "thats what fish do to protect big hands". So I just assumed he had a random 2 pair, is this logical?

Also, as far as me limping the button like that, I'm just experimenting with some exploitative play lately, I dont normally do that.

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listening to edzwoo has made u a nit... *sigh* - ZalforLast edit: 04/03/2016 09:53

DooMeR   United States. Mar 04 2016 11:57. Posts 8452

I would be raising PF 90% of the time to 35 or potentially more depending on dynamics. Other 10% id limp. I'd fold 0% and if the dealer tried to accidentally muck my hand I would jump on the table and drop kick him. That is assuming you meant you normally fold there . As played flat flop for sure if you aren't going to raise call it off vs 500 stack (not to imply that I think thats a good play). your hand plays fine multiway and you can still pick up some opportunities to win the hand occasionally with J or T on turn getting it checked to you. Raising doesn't fold out better draws (especially to this sizing) and it doesnt fold out good hands. It only folds out hands we have pretty good equity vs anyway. However those hands wont continue for us to leverage our good equity against. The only hands that continue to play have us in bad shape one way or another. So we are basically isolating our self for the good hands to destroy us. And folding out hands that we are getting an amazing price and have tremendous equity advantage against. Considering we aren't continuing to a raise. Would we be considering KQss a raise here on the flop? I doubt it. However its a similar hand vs ranges we are isolating. The allure of whats a perceived safety net is cool(having a flushdraw and all). But I feel we have to be conscious of how our actions manipulate peoples ranges to continue. Not to mention Atleast vs good hands you can realize your equity and beat them. Now you're guaranteeing they are going to win the pot. I would assume the field would be folding a decent amount however we do have to worry about atleast the villain leading and sometimes on the first flatter and potentially (though SUPER rarely) one of the other callers to have a good hand. Villain leading pot into the field would be kind of scary imo. This guy is an uber value nit. He might be the type that will bluff freely and be scared to valuebet. But it doesn't sound like it. Sounds like hes a nit :|.

I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance, by running away from the scene of an accident.Last edit: 04/03/2016 11:59

traxamillion   United States. Mar 04 2016 16:48. Posts 10217

Call flop

traxamillion   United States. Mar 04 2016 16:50. Posts 10217

Not the jam but the initial 30. Not sure how much pot/folding BB is doing on this board

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Mar 04 2016 17:07. Posts 7641

I'd iso pre too
snap fold as played, guy s obv a huge nit

no idea why you raise flop, we accomplish nothing by doing so especially vs pot bet

 Last edit: 04/03/2016 17:08

traxamillion   United States. Mar 04 2016 17:34. Posts 10217

You would be surprised how often ur isos turn onto 4-5 way pots , so yea good hand to raise pre

NewbSaibot   United States. Mar 04 2016 20:46. Posts 4744

I was actually about to call the $30 but felt that most live players freeze up when any draw completes so I was worried I wouldnt get any more action if I hit. Basically I'm calling a flush draw with no implied odds. Plus I have some results oriented confirmation bias from so many missed semi-bluff opportunities where it was clear they would have folded had I played it more aggressively.

Lets say I did raise preflop and he was the only caller, would I still be getting it allin on this flop no matter how it played out? For instance say he c/r me there

listening to edzwoo has made u a nit... *sigh* - ZalforLast edit: 04/03/2016 20:51

chipsnhand   United States. Mar 05 2016 01:44. Posts 36

whats your trackers read on the villain?

fira   United States. Mar 05 2016 03:56. Posts 6199

agree with call flop. even if u dont have implied odds (which u def do, at least a little bit) there are still 3 in between calls which gives u phenomenal odds to chase the flush

i'm either way on limping or raising pre, tend to raise more often as a balanced play but limpings fine if aggressions been the game

if its hu postflop... it depends on SPR. with the hand u've got u want to avoid the "nightmare scenario" which is basically what happened - u got a nice hand with lots of equity, but just not enough to make an allin call. so if the stacks are very deep, a bet would be great, because villain at most can just check/raise, he can't jam and force u to fold. whereas if SPR is about 3-4 or something, u dont rly wanna bet and get jammed on with the hand u've got, and so may want a wider checkback range containing various yumyum draws

seize the dayLast edit: 05/03/2016 03:57

traxamillion   United States. Mar 05 2016 23:39. Posts 10217

you are def wrong about not having any implied on the flush outs

PoorUser    United States. Mar 06 2016 01:32. Posts 7324

if hes going to fold to your flop raise youll make him fold some later street easily enough. all raising ip does is give him a chance to play his hand easily (esp vs your specific hand)

Moneys gotta go in hereLast edit: 06/03/2016 01:36

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Mar 06 2016 21:36. Posts 7641

  On March 04 2016 19:46 NewbSaibot wrote:
Basically I'm calling a flush draw with no implied odds.

you cant really believe that cmon :D
you re most likely selectively picking memories to justify it, but in no means thats true, besides its quite natural for them to " freeze up" most of the times since thats just how ranges adjust for them

 Last edit: 06/03/2016 21:38


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