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2/5 Live - QQ vs c/r

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NewbSaibot   United States. Feb 22 2016 05:50. Posts 4817

V1 is deepstacked asian guy who seems to be talkative and not the super nitty type. V2 is some mexican guy completely stoic, must be playing ABC. Hero is relatively new to the table, probably has no image.

V1 ($2200)
V2 ($1500)
Hero ($800)

UTG raises to $20
V1 calls
V2 3bets to $80
Hero calls with QcQd
BTN calls
UTG calls
V1 calls

Flop ($400) 2h 3h 8d
UTG checks
V1 checks
V2 bets $100
Hero calls(?)
BTN calls
V1 c/r jams and then starts angling V2 looking at him shaking his head and tapping the table with 3 fingers as if to suggest he has a set of 3's and he should fold
V2 tank folds
Hero ???

The angling really got to me since I often see "friends" at the table try to avoid showdowns by protecting their hand. You know the type, they shove $500 into $40 with AA on 259hhh flop because they are afraid of being outdrawn. At first I put V2 on AK when he bets 1/4 pot thinking that he's just scared and desperately hoping to take it down. Then I think he might actually do this as a sort of blocking bet with a big overpair since he knows a c/r is going to fold him out every time. He anguishes over the hand before finally letting it go, so now I'm thinking maybe he really did have KK/AA.

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listening to edzwoo has made u a nit... *sigh* - ZalforLast edit: 22/02/2016 05:52

casinocasino   Canada. Feb 22 2016 07:49. Posts 3308

I would probably call.

I find it really odd that a guy who has you beat with a set would try to play it so hard not only the field but someone who he is very deep. I think if he did have a set he would c/r to something like 300-450

traxamillion   United States. Feb 23 2016 05:49. Posts 10343

certainly a sethunting spot for v1 pre but he can have some NFDs here too i suppose. Might actually be a fold. I think live information and whatnot play a role here. i have stacked off in similar spots tho

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Feb 23 2016 21:37. Posts 8272

raise pre
raise flop
as played no clue, considering the lack of info im folding, there would be no logic to be playing nuts fd this way

 Last edit: 23/02/2016 21:38

traxamillion   United States. Feb 24 2016 04:18. Posts 10343

  On February 23 2016 20:37 Spitfiree wrote:
raise pre
raise flop
as played no clue, considering the lack of info im folding, there would be no logic to be playing nuts fd this way

a4/a5hh might and not cause it is the most logical play (although there is 700 in the pot when it's back to v1 on the flop so it is not even bad)

 Last edit: 24/02/2016 16:57

NewbSaibot   United States. Feb 24 2016 17:41. Posts 4817

So I folded. The angle worked, but only because I see so many people actually beg for a fold with the nuts on drawy boards, especially since the mexican guy seemed extremely tight and not really friendly at the table, i.e. he's not friends with anyone. He claimed he folded JJ which I guess sorta makes sense given his flop sizing. Had it not been for him in the hand I probably would have called it off. Luckily another player behind me did call and the asian dude turned over 34o and won lol. I dont really mind his play if he has any of the aforementioned hands, but I think getting in there with 34o is a bit wild.

listening to edzwoo has made u a nit... *sigh* - Zalfor 

traxamillion   United States. Feb 25 2016 08:15. Posts 10343

well he wasn't lying when he told dude he had a 3 and put the 3 fingers on the table. haha

traxamillion   United States. Feb 25 2016 08:16. Posts 10343

oh and

lol live fish

see this daily and u rarely see it onlline anymore at the same frequencies

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Feb 25 2016 23:12. Posts 8272

shoving A4 or A5hh after Hero calls is pretty terrible, but then again its live poker

 Last edit: 25/02/2016 23:12

traxamillion   United States. Feb 26 2016 03:54. Posts 10343

why would hero calling be the thing that makes it bad?

there is 700 in the pot when villain jams so if he jams a4/a5hh or even bare nfds it will be +ev so it cant really be "bad" other lines can make more money but this isn't losing in a vacuum here

JohnnyBologna   United States. Feb 26 2016 16:30. Posts 1393

Your hand is severly underrepped. I can see villain shoving any flush draw open ender pocket pairs over the board.

By doing a little bit at a time, a lot can be done 

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Feb 26 2016 18:19. Posts 8272

  On February 26 2016 02:54 traxamillion wrote:
why would hero calling be the thing that makes it bad?

there is 700 in the pot when villain jams so if he jams a4/a5hh or even bare nfds it will be +ev so it cant really be "bad" other lines can make more money but this isn't losing in a vacuum here

First no A4,A5hh wont be +ev vs the any adequate calling range post check/raise after a cbet hero call, especially considering that they are super deep and Hero underreps his hand
Second his hand realizes his equity much better with a call

 Last edit: 26/02/2016 18:21

traxamillion   United States. Feb 27 2016 04:28. Posts 10343

v2 has basically no sets here given pre,, or 2pair for that matter. You only run into those hands vs v1 button and utg who have half the stacks and you will be ok to run it. Given you will take down the pot via folds on the flop quite often and v2 may call off deep with KK no way it is -ev. Don't need to take it down much on the flop to start becoming quite profitable actually.

In the worst case scenario (which is what % of the time? 1-5% being very generous. Very.) V1 will pay 1420 to win 2020 with 33.8% equity vs top set when the breakeven point is about 41-42%. So the rare worst case scenario isn't even catastrophic.

And in my last post I specifically said this all isn't to say other lines might not be better

Edit. Talking about a hypothetical situation where jamming villain has a4hh and whether it is +ev

 Last edit: 27/02/2016 04:37

fira   United States. Feb 27 2016 18:50. Posts 6277

i think the fold is ok, considering how insanely deep that jam is.

i really dislike hand signals in live poker, that can totally be a possible type of collusion. it's basically the same thing as speaking in a different language. but there's no way to stop it cos ppl can be doing it for fun.

just wondering what did the guy who called have? how does he lose to a pair of 3s after making that call lol

also u guys talking about A4h/A5h like we're hoping he has that. when u're hoping to be only a slight underdog i guess u should fold ;o

we go onLast edit: 27/02/2016 18:52

NewbSaibot   United States. Feb 27 2016 20:33. Posts 4817

Cant remember what the other guy had, he was short and only in for like $200 and had already lost several allins with terribly weak hands, so I didnt really pay attention to him at showdown since I was flabbergasted at the asian dude's hand.

listening to edzwoo has made u a nit... *sigh* - ZalforLast edit: 27/02/2016 20:34

traxamillion   United States. Feb 28 2016 04:21. Posts 10343

Actually my 1st post was talking about his range, coming to the same conclusions you did, and then saying it was likely a fold.

Then spitfire randomly said a shove with a4hh would be losing and I disagree so we started discussing that tangent

fira   United States. Feb 28 2016 15:20. Posts 6277

ah ok

hmm well jamming A4h isnt something i'd do regularly but its hard to be losing when u have that hand. stacks aren't deep enough but if they were even deeper it could do poorly vs a calling range of only sets and maybe 8xh. although we're like breakeven vs 8xh. at the same time tho we get to bluff every pair off their 40-50% equity. think it was talentedtom who said, when u have a hand like A4h on this board its very hard to play it in a way where it doesn't make $$. also worth mentioning that there were two flat callers, so it'd be a big squeeze. the more in-between callers the more i like the jam, collect dat dead monies and make the pairs think before folding. much lower SPR and its an auto-jam i think... the deeper the less good.

we go onLast edit: 28/02/2016 15:26

Ryan Neilly   United States. Mar 01 2016 12:57. Posts 1243

on 100 blinds i rarely flat here pre, 4bet to ~200 and have a 3/4 psb jam imo

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Mar 01 2016 18:29. Posts 8272

You re missing the part where V1 and V2 are deep
Now I'm completely ignoring the " they might be friends" part as we have no info about it whatsoever, can't speculate on a longshot
Otherwise I would agree
V2's range is irrelevant too at this point as he folded anyway
We re looking only at V1's range

Also what other guy Newbsaibot wut ? 200$ more in the pot changes things

 Last edit: 01/03/2016 18:33


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