Sam Harris on "Free Will" - Page 3

On December 01 2012 13:24 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2012 16:30 mnj wrote: Hey Loco, is there a specific time in the day you think meditating is particularly useful/effective, in the sense that it is easier to meditate? I have been alotting about 20-30 minutes a day meditating, but as you said, all these other thoughts come into my consciousness and I try and let them run its course, but sometimes it is literally 20-30 minutes of worrying because I am not working Q_Q Yeah, I forgot to mention it... morning is generally accepted as the best, because we feel "fresh"... unlike at night, when all of the stories of our day and what we've been involved in constantly loops in our mind when we try to meditate. Personally I'm always starving in the morning so I couldn't meditate when I wake up, (plus it would be awkward in the sense that you could just fall asleep again)... so a quick meal and a meditation session works best. Meditation is pretty much impossible if you have big worries that are owning you. Your life needs to be simple and peaceful (imo). I haven't done a lot of serious meditation in the past because of that. I had to simplify my life first. The best thing you can do if you feel stuck and unable to do these sessions is to condition yourself to be conscious of your breathing whenever you get bored, have downtime or you're waiting. You don't have to meditate only when you're alone, sitting some place with the intent to meditate. Any time is a proper time to meditate and learn to shut off the world. All you have to do is be in a position where you don't absolutely have to think and put all your attention on your breathing. You can do this many times every day and over time it will become second nature and will make the larger meditation sessions easier, especially the first 0 to 10 mins from them.

^ lol HUH??? but this is the worst meditation advices i've ever read. it's completely wrong and counter to good meditation practice.

one of the underlying goals of meditation is to reduce your psychic turbulence, if you only meditate when you're feeling good you're missing the point.

if something huge is going on in your life and you're very stressed about it that's one of the best times to meditate. if you're able to sit down in some meditation position , focus on your breath, and endure and push past any emotional or physical discomfort that comes your way as oppose to suppressing it, then you're on the right track.

i also wouldn't say that meditating in the morning is best because you feel "fresh", and i think there are better reasons for why meditating in the morning could be good--such as because it takes significant discipline to commit to something like that daily. moreover, unless your a zen monk it's probably also unnecessary and counter-productive in most cases if you do it daily.

That's not one of the "underlying goals of meditation" ... it depends what your intent is. What you're talking about is using meditation as a relaxation technique. Do you think every single person who meditates simply wants to relax? You're extremely Western in your approach to meditation. I approach it from a more Eastern perspective, with the focus on spiritual growth, so our approaches are very different.

If you have some big issues in your life that require action taken, it is not the best time to meditate seriously. You're more likely to experience peace of mind if you resolve your issues first instead of trying to no-think them away; that's what I was saying. What you're saying is that if you're overly stressed you will benefit from relaxing, and that's all. Meditation has higher goals than simple relaxation. And how can simple advice like "simplify your life before taking meditation seriously" be "the worst meditation advice ever"? You sound ridiculous.

Why would it take more discipline to meditate in the morning versus at night or other time of the day? You didn't address that. By the way, I am no expert on meditation (and apparently you aren't either), I was just trying to help him from personal experience since he asked me. When I mentioned morning it is because I have used Vedanta practices as default, and while the more serious seekers meditate both in the morning and at night, it is generally agreed upon that morning is most fruitful. They, like Schopenhauer, agree that the mind is more able to focus on things in the morning than at night. Night is better suited to leisure:

"The rule on which I am here insisting should be most carefully
observed towards evening. For as darkness makes us timid and apt to
see terrifying shapes everywhere, there is something similar in the
effect of indistinct thought; and uncertainty always brings with it a
sense of danger. Hence, towards evening, when our powers of thought
and judgment are relaxed,--at the hour, as it were, of subjective
darkness,--the intellect becomes tired, easily confused, and unable
to get at the bottom of things; and if, in that state, we meditate
on matters of personal interest to ourselves, they soon assume a
dangerous and terrifying aspect. This is mostly the case at night,
when we are in bed; for then the mind is fully relaxed, and the power
of judgment quite unequal to its duties; but imagination is still
awake. Night gives a black look to everything, whatever it may be.
This is why our thoughts, just before we go to sleep, or as we lie
awake through the hours of the night, are usually such confusions and
perversions of facts as dreams themselves; and when our thoughts at
that time are concentrated upon our own concerns, they are generally
as black and monstrous as possible. In the morning all such nightmares
vanish like dreams: as the Spanish proverb has it, noche tinta,
bianco el dia--the night is colored, the day is white. But even
towards nightfall, as soon as the candles are lit, the mind, like the
eye, no longer sees things so clearly as by day: it is a time unsuited
to serious meditation, especially on unpleasant subjects. The morning
is the proper time for that--as indeed for all efforts without
exception, whether mental or bodily. For the morning is the youth of
the day, when everything is bright, fresh, and easy of attainment;
we feel strong then, and all our faculties are completely at our
disposal. Do not shorten the morning by getting up late, or waste it
in unworthy occupations or in talk; look upon it as the quintessence
of life, as to a certain extent sacred. Evening is like old age: we
are languid, talkative, silly. Each day is a little life: every waking
and rising a little birth, every fresh morning a little youth, every
going to rest and sleep a little death." - Schopenhauer

"moreover, unless your a zen monk it's probably also unnecessary and counter-productive in most cases if you do it daily."

No, it's not. Even if you just use meditation as a relaxation technique there's no reason why 10-15 mins a day of it would be unnecessary or counter-productive. In the stressful world we live in, everyone can benefit of relaxing for such a small time-frame. Even really busy people find a way to waste a lot of their time daily, so it wouldn't be counter-productive. Plus, it's well understood that if you don't stick to something every single day you're most likely to not be successful in making it habitual and serving its purpose.

if you read carefully, i never once stated it was only a relaxation technique... though i did suggest that it COULD be used as a relaxation technique.

You, on the other hand, offered advice line with your statement "meditation is pretty much impossible unless you have a clear mind", which is just completely backwards in the eastern tradition of meditation and potentially damaging. moreover, you gave this advice to someone who was asking you for your opinion, someone who may take this opinion to heart. instead of trying to be right all the time why don't you take some responsibility for the bad advice you gave and be more humble in your approach.

change your ways.

You didn't state it, but you implied it. Anyway, it's a pointless argument, who cares. All I'm saying is you probably want to deal with big issues if there's some action you can take, otherwise your meditation isn't going to be very fruitful. It's better than nothing if you manage to calm down the tempest a bit, sure; but that's not the solution.

When I said "meditation is pretty much impossible without a clear mind" I used poor word choices. It doesn't even make sense, since no one has a clear mind; even when meditating thoughts will still arise and we'll find problems. What I meant to say is difficult to put into words... that you want to have a clear conscience maybe? Even that isn't quite it. You want to have the space to be able to meditate; internally, that is. If you have responsibilities in the way you're not going to be able to take it seriously - which might not even be his intent, but it was mine and he asked me so it's the only viewpoint I have. I was trying to say something that I realized from personal experience, which is that spiritual progress is impossible if you are dominated by worries (how am I gonna make money, how am I going to get out of this situation, etc.) ... I believe these things should be out of the way, resolved, if someone wants to take the practice seriously.

If the intent is to learn to diminish mental noise and improve relaxation, then I do think that my advice for simplifying one's life applies. I believe they go together.

I don't know what you are talking about with the bad advice. Was my advice damaging? What made it so bad? I gave advice from an equally valid perspective (the one focused on spiritual growth, rather than the one of Western pragmatism). So far the only thing you've been able to prove is that your advice would've been different than mine. And that apparently makes my advice bad. At worst, my advice was misplaced... not meant to be the right one for him. But you call it straight up bad. Now you tell me to be more humble and tell me that I just try to be right all the time and yet you objectively claim that my advice is bad and yours is good... pretty ironic.


Edit: Actually, I just looked back, and you didn't even quote me properly. No wonder I thought the words I used didn't make sense... I didn't even use them. I said "Meditation is pretty much impossible if you have big worries that are owning you." Clearly very different from "you need to have a clear mind." You should say it when you're paraphrasing. Before teaching me humility you might want to focus on your own integrity...

i recommend this course on meditation. http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=1933

ive taken it and i've been practicing for liek 6 months. i don't really feel like explaining thoroughly, but Loco seems to be more in line with what the course teaches than paradox. fwiw. im also no expert though

On December 02 2012 21:22 Loco wrote: You didn't state it, but you implied it. Anyway, it's a pointless argument, who cares.

"It's a pointless argument", *posts wall of text".

On December 03 2012 07:46 brambolius wrote: Show nested quote + On December 02 2012 21:22 Loco wrote: You didn't state it, but you implied it. Anyway, it's a pointless argument, who cares. "It's a pointless argument", *posts wall of text".

Because there was more than one point to be addressed and it's that one that I thought was pointless to argue about? Not so hard to understand.

On December 02 2012 23:06 WhyYouKickMyDog wrote: i recommend this course on meditation. http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=1933 ive taken it and i've been practicing for liek 6 months. i don't really feel like explaining thoroughly, but Loco seems to be more in line with what the course teaches than paradox. fwiw. im also no expert though

Thanks for sharing this. I used this site for philosophy lectures... some of them are really, really good. I might have to listen to this course, it looks solid.

On December 02 2012 21:22 Loco wrote: If the intent is to learn to diminish mental noise and improve relaxation, then I do think that my advice for simplifying one's life applies. I believe they go together.

Why wait till your life is “simplified” before you meditate? I don’t disagree that simplifying your life, whatever that means, sounds like a nice concept. But waiting for simplifier times before meditation, is in a sense like practising a game on easy mode and expecting the same results as someone who practices on hard mode. In another sense it’s waiting for something that does not exist. If the intent, that is, is to diminish mental noise and improve relaxation then it doesn’t matter how much shit is going on in your life for when you choose to meditate.

Why do you think you’re supposed to sit in those poses? Because they are designed to be uncomfortable. It’s a much bigger challenge to focus on your breath, much less calm your mind, when your body is screaming at you to shift positions; yet you continue to be still. The shit that can go wrong in your life is a kind of pain that’s no different from the physical kind of pain that you’re trying to overcome when you’re sitting in those poses. If you don’t learn to deal with psychic pain while you meditate bare in mental solitude, how do you envision yourself to deal with them in real life? Or would you prefer to continue to compartmentalize them? Talk about simplifying your life, why not start by viewing them as the same, and likewise treat them so.

Moreover, some people don’t have the luxury of “simplifying their life”. Not everyone has the good fortune to be able to find a quiet place to meditate. Some people live in constant pain, hunger, threat. How would you advise them? In those cases all you really have is your mind, and your ability to breath. In those cases there’s nothing you can do to simplify things on the outside. And some would carry that farther and propose that you can only simplify your life from within.

On December 03 2012 09:44 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On December 03 2012 07:46 brambolius wrote:   On December 02 2012 21:22 Loco wrote: You didn't state it, but you implied it. Anyway, it's a pointless argument, who cares. "It's a pointless argument", *posts wall of text". Because there was more than one point to be addressed and it's that one that I thought was pointless to argue about? Not so hard to understand.

I don't understand.

^ the wall of text you refer to wasn't a response to the pointless argument referred to by Loco. Get it?

Get what?