Controversy erupts over Skier_5s poker program

A huge controversy erupted over a recent PokerStars decision - recently a high stakes player, skier_5, developed a software that helps (or basically - makes the decision for the player) with preflop play. The software, which is aimed at Heads-up SNG tournaments, was given only to few players from his close circle and they all use it with success to boost their profits by huge margin. PokerStars looked into the software and commented it will allow it's further use without any punishment.

PokerStars investigated and concluded that the players aren't breaking any rules, since they are making the decisions themselves and secondary, that the players still have to make some of the more difficult decisions. Last but not least, they said that Nash charts has been allowed in play since forever.

However, many players are asking where is the limit of the help legal software should provide? The players who use this software (known nicknames are allingirl777, freechdogg and skier_5) have identical preflop stats in preflop player over large samples.

A huge discussions erupted over 2+2 poker forums (the topics has over 60 pages at the moment of writing this news) with majority of people agreeing the software should be prohibited.

What's your opinion?

Maybe soon we will reach the time when online poker will become bad for poker in general. I mean softwares will have hard time with custom made bots. So such a program with push/fold charts would seem like a joke.

well ever since HEM got released it was just a matter of time before HUDs started giving u advice how to play, you cannot ban them as you cannot ban a pro poker player sitting beside you and telling u what to do.

On May 30 2015 11:31 dnagardi wrote: well ever since HEM got released it was just a matter of time before HUDs started giving u advice how to play, you cannot ban them as you cannot ban a pro poker player sitting beside you and telling u what to do.

ya, like everyone who used a HUD is going to get their own personal poker pro (who has a mental built in HUD) to sit next to them and tell them what to do

u got my point.

your saying you can't ban HUDs or software like this that tells you what to do and i'm saying you can.. whether or not it can be enforced is a different matter but I think it mostly can be.

this is dumb. pokerstars is dumb. letting people get through loopholes with all this technical bullshit. a thing that makes decisions for you even though just preflop is essentially a mini bot.

HUDs were already questionable, and a lot of sites ban them because the unfair disadvantage players without them were at.

You have to draw the line somewhere. Now you have people that can just download this program and play better than average preflop in an instant?

whats next, make one that does it for flop and turn as well and its okay because you still have to make a river decision?

i dont think poker is a recreational game anymore. at least not online poker. with all the streams huds and programs, this has been a cut-throat game of a race to have the most resources and programs at your disposal.

Who gives them action now ?

how do sites ban HUDs?

On May 30 2015 13:11 JohnnyBologna wrote: i dont think poker is a recreational game anymore. at least not online poker. with all the streams huds and programs, this has been a cut-throat game of a race to have the most resources and programs at your disposal.

this.

I much prefer playing on a site that prohibits the use of huds

i think HUDS offer a lot of input but I think sites should ban HUDs. On some US sites there are a few guys who are winners in MTTs who rely solely on HUDs but if the HUD is not working they become terrible players.

On May 30 2015 14:34 dnagardi wrote: how do sites ban HUDs?

well they make it so you can change your name up to 6 times a week. the HUDs dont work on the sites.

This kind of stuff really is bad for the game. A rec player like me see's this and says "nope nope & nope, taking my $1000 to the card room tonight instead".

I really don't think anything should be banned if you can't enforce it. I mean relying on goodwill from the internet poker player to not use software that will give them a huge advantage is completely ludicrous. Anonymous tables bastardizes the game more than it helps IMO. So as long as these programs aren't bots (as in there's always a person physically playing and clicking), even though I fully agree that they're terrible for poker I don't really know what can be done.

Just pay blizzard for whatever they use to detect 3rd party programs
Enforce it in PS software
Prohibit this
Ban anyone that doesn't follow the rules

Does anyone know where to get a Map Hack for online poker? I want to see my opponents cards to help me make decisions.

On May 31 2015 21:33 Spitfiree wrote: Just pay blizzard for whatever they use to detect 3rd party programs Enforce it in PS software Prohibit this Ban anyone that doesn't follow the rules

this won't solve the problem

On May 30 2015 14:34 dnagardi wrote: how do sites ban HUDs?

Or they don't allow any form of hand history importation.

On May 30 2015 13:11 JohnnyBologna wrote: Now you have people that can just download this program and play better than average preflop in an instant? whats next, make one that does it for flop and turn as well and its okay because you still have to make a river decision?

You can't, only available for the players he stakes. And it does already cover postflop play, although it is unclear how exactly. And they do not become "better than average" preflop in an instant, they become as good as the best players from the highest stake. Basically he put all his high-stakes knowledge into an insanely smart bot, in a game that is probably next in line for solvable after LHU.
The bot doesn't click buttons, instead it says out loud the correct play, and according to PS' TOS that is within the rules.

The problem with the current perspective is that winning players and therefore aspiring players shoot themselves in the foot when they try to ban software that gives players edges. One the one hand one could think software kills profitability but in another sense it's quite the opposite. Truly if effective rake was lower and everyone won more then a few software edges or even bots here or there would not be such an important topic.

Players have resorted to restricting their own freedoms in not only unrealistic ways but also ways that clearly do not fix the problems they intend to fix.

We seem largely unawares there is a sort of arms race going on with this sort of technology, and if we want a profitable game then bots and software will arise. They are part of an equilibrium, but the diagram below seems to take clear control of this equilibrium and simultaneously seems to solve bots, profitability, software grievances, and collusion. If you take a good look across poker social media and new sites you will notice something clear, poker is in a broken state as the players are becoming aware of the ultimate game and that sustainability and profitability in this current form has been off the table for quite some time.

Let’s assume bots are real, and can play perfect equilibrium poker. Profitable poker games might necessarily fill up with bots, that can then collude both as nodes and on the table. Then much of the real world bitcoin economics applies, as to the risk/rewards/costs of creating bots and bot rings. IF these bots/nodes can be put in a decentralized equilibrium AND they could also create/maintain private games…then players could pay rake to this lower level bot infested ring, in order that they may organize and create their own intended poker game (or variants of ). This way bots have incentive to hold up the network AND to be honest as a jury pool. Players are free to create their own games and fields, provided they pay the necessary market equilibrium costs.