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Handnr: 1082891
Submitted by : Stroggoz

PokerStars Hand #187414632179: Holdem No Limit ($10/$20 USD) - 2018/06/09 10:58:19 ET
Table Pannekoek 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: GODofHU ($2769.80 in chips)
Seat 2: yuginZu ($530.58 in chips)
Seat 3: Mukhin1 ($2520.32 in chips)
Seat 4: avr0ra ($2004.09 in chips)
Seat 5: OtB_RedBaron ($2320.92 in chips)
Seat 6: Jayee100 ($4727.88 in chips)
GODofHU: posts small blind $10
yuginZu: posts big blind $20

Holecards(Odds)
Mukhin1: folds
avr0ra: folds
OtB_RedBaron: folds
Jayee100: raises $25 to $45
GODofHU: raises $146.25 to $191.25
yuginZu: folds
Jayee100: calls $146.25

Flop(Odds) (Pot : $402.50)

   4s6c8h
GODofHU: checks
Jayee100: checks

Turn(Odds) (Pot : $402.50)

   4s6c8h9s
GODofHU: checks
Jayee100: bets $199.75
GODofHU: raises $399.50 to $599.25
Jayee100: raises $3937.38 to $4536.63 and is all-in
GODofHU: calls $1979.30 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($1958.08) returned to Jayee100

River (Pot : $5,559.60)

   4s6c8h9sAd

Showdown
GODofHU: shows JsJc (a pair of Jacks)
Jayee100: shows 9h6h (two pair, Nines and Sixes)
Jayee100 collected $5556.60 from pot

Summary
Total pot $5559.60 | Rake $3
Board  4s6c8h9sAd
Seat 1: GODofHU (small blind) showed JsJc and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 2: yuginZu (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Mukhin1 folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 4: avr0ra folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 5: OtB_RedBaron folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 6: Jayee100 (button) showed 9h6h and won ($5556.60) with two pair, Nines and Sixes




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Comments

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traxamillion   United States. Oct 03 2018 01:38. Posts 10368

GOD must be expecting to get a flop c/r in quite often here?

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Baalim   Mexico. Oct 03 2018 04:38. Posts 32201

the fact that he didnt stab his middle pair makes his attempted CR quite bad

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Stroggoz   New Zealand. Oct 03 2018 09:09. Posts 4100

yeah i doubt anyone would stab much here tbh. It looks insanely suspicious to not cbet an 8 high board in this spot, any nl2k reg would know pio cbets 100% so every reg should cbet 100% here given it's so easy to replicate gto in this spot.

well perhaps godofhu is one of the few that hasn't touched a solver. I wouldn't be suprised going off this hand...

I was GTO in 2007 -wobbly_au 

ToT)MidiaN(    United Kingdom. Oct 05 2018 20:40. Posts 4953


  On October 03 2018 08:09 Stroggoz wrote:
yeah i doubt anyone would stab much here tbh. It looks insanely suspicious to not cbet an 8 high board in this spot, any nl2k reg would know pio cbets 100% so every reg should cbet 100% here given it's so easy to replicate gto in this spot.

well perhaps godofhu is one of the few that hasn't touched a solver. I wouldn't be suprised going off this hand...



I must be massively out of touch (I don't really even play anymore), but would have thought solvers would actually cbet fairly infrequently on 864 as 3bettor there. What preflop ranges are you assigning both players or what solver ranges are there for this spot if you have any? What postflop sizings are you assigning both players?

Edit: By fairly infrequently I just mean a lot less than 100%, like maybe 50-70% ish

 Last edit: 05/10/2018 20:41

Stroggoz   New Zealand. Oct 06 2018 04:27. Posts 4100

low flops do not hit IP that much, but OOP has 6 overpairs. 6x6=36 combos. looking at IP the only low hands are suited, like A8s, 87s, and pp's. suited combos are only 4 combos each, those broadway hands like KQ, AJo being 12 combos each, it's really connected broadway flops that OOP has more trouble cbetting.

It's common knowledge among solver uses that basically any 9 high flops or less in this particular spot is a 100% cbet spot because OOP's range is that much stronger. (apart from a few flops like 987).

Furthermore JJ is one of the best cbetting hands because it needs protection more than QQ-AA. if you put lots of sizes for cbetting, 99-JJ pick big sizes. (overbet as a cbet size sometimes).

I was GTO in 2007 -wobbly_auLast edit: 06/10/2018 04:27

LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Oct 06 2018 10:47. Posts 14615

Midian's right
It's a deep-ish spot
TT and say 50% JJ should flat pre

definitely not 100% cbet here
various sizes
+ Show Spoiler +



50%
+ Show Spoiler +



And these are tightish ranges
If I add more sooted hands like 96s 86s K7s + more offsuit broadways it goes down to 27%

In practice I think people add more suited hands as opposed to call QJo and shit deeper, but for the sake of the argument let's add them also
+ Show Spoiler +




JJ is mostly a check in all scenarios here

NL5 Grinder 4LifeLast edit: 06/10/2018 10:55

LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Oct 06 2018 11:01. Posts 14615

These are with basic turn+river sizes
it's possible you I gave it a lot more options there like 25% +pot it will change
by that it'd change from 30-50% to 100% cbet? seems unlikely

NL5 Grinder 4LifeLast edit: 06/10/2018 11:01

ToT)MidiaN(    United Kingdom. Oct 06 2018 11:05. Posts 4953

Perhaps the ranges in my Simple Postflop pack are massively off what people are actually doing, or even what they should be doing. Although, there isn't an SB v BTN pack so maybe this explains the difference. I just have the BB v Button ranges and I guess BB is a bit more "polar" if SB is still playing mostly 3bet or fold these days (Unsure if this is true these days either).

But against BB 3bet IP has basically 100% of 88,66,44,86s,75s,64s. Still has a good percentage of the JJ-99 region and doesn't have the missed offsuit broadways at 100% as they are choosing to 4bet a good percentage. IP also simply has a lot of hands that connect with pair or gutshot.

I'll try running the sim with these ranges and see what happens, be interested to see the ranges you're assigning for this spot

 Last edit: 06/10/2018 15:00

LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Oct 06 2018 12:52. Posts 14615

you can see mine
on the very left

Top one is OOp bottom one IP

NL5 Grinder 4Life 

LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Oct 06 2018 13:24. Posts 14615

solvers should have similar results btw
it will differ on the settings for next streets tho

NL5 Grinder 4Life 

ToT)MidiaN(    United Kingdom. Oct 06 2018 15:04. Posts 4953



Using the Simple postflop BB v BTN pack (Although this is based on 100bb stacks, 2.25x open and 3bet sizing is a bit smaller than used in actual hand). Gave 25%/50%/75% and 150% options to both players postflop

 Last edit: 06/10/2018 15:09

Stroggoz   New Zealand. Oct 06 2018 15:44. Posts 4100

ill try messing around with ranges a bit. My sims have been using solver preflop ranges and all cbet 90%+ on low flops, but i was looking at BB as well. SB has a wider 3bet range and less overpairs %wise as a result, so it can be different for sure. slight changes in preflop range here can have drastic differences. even a slightly higher equity 3bet range can make it go from 50% to 100% cbet on flop

this is 2million hands of 5/10+ population frequencies in SB 3bet BU https://gyazo.com/f475a3eb5495467b042a584bc2b63034

I was GTO in 2007 -wobbly_auLast edit: 06/10/2018 15:55

Baalim   Mexico. Oct 07 2018 00:04. Posts 32201


  On October 06 2018 09:47 LemOn[5thF] wrote:
Midian's right
It's a deep-ish spot
TT and say 50% JJ should flat pre

definitely not 100% cbet here
various sizes
+ Show Spoiler +



50%
+ Show Spoiler +



And these are tightish ranges
If I add more sooted hands like 96s 86s K7s + more offsuit broadways it goes down to 27%

In practice I think people add more suited hands as opposed to call QJo and shit deeper, but for the sake of the argument let's add them also
+ Show Spoiler +




JJ is mostly a check in all scenarios here




Is that the new GTO solver? the UI looks prettier than SP and PIO

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LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Oct 07 2018 09:57. Posts 14615


  On October 06 2018 23:04 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



Is that the new GTO solver? the UI looks prettier than SP and PIO


Yeah nicer and simpler
Drawback is that it is simple, you need to get around the quirks

Like for 3 sizes you just put in "25,50,100" in one box
And it builds a tree with all of em
And why some results differ is that it has a default one size for turn+river
And you need to specify multiple ones to get more realistic flop results
And no preflop, but you're better off buying solutions for that anyways if you dont want to bother with the cliud server thing
It has everything the others do - nodelock, multiple sizes, database and I find it really snappy
And results are more or less the same

And costs $75 lifetime licence no restrictions on cores or anything


I got a group on Skype of some micro guys running sims, pm if you'll use it and wanna go in

NL5 Grinder 4LifeLast edit: 07/10/2018 09:58

Baalim   Mexico. Oct 08 2018 00:58. Posts 32201


  On October 07 2018 08:57 LemOn[5thF] wrote:
Show nested quote +



Yeah nicer and simpler
Drawback is that it is simple, you need to get around the quirks

Like for 3 sizes you just put in "25,50,100" in one box
And it builds a tree with all of em
And why some results differ is that it has a default one size for turn+river
And you need to specify multiple ones to get more realistic flop results
And no preflop, but you're better off buying solutions for that anyways if you dont want to bother with the cliud server thing
It has everything the others do - nodelock, multiple sizes, database and I find it really snappy
And results are more or less the same

And costs $75 lifetime licence no restrictions on cores or anything


I got a group on Skype of some micro guys running sims, pm if you'll use it and wanna go in



PIO works the same with sizes you write them down in that exact format, SP is slightly different.

the inputs for turn and river (cars, sizes, etc) should not affect the result on the flop since they are independant events afaik

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Baalim   Mexico. Oct 08 2018 00:58. Posts 32201

can it run aggregate reports?

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KoeBawlt   Canada. Oct 08 2018 20:23. Posts 372


  On October 07 2018 23:58 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



PIO works the same with sizes you write them down in that exact format, SP is slightly different.

the inputs for turn and river (cars, sizes, etc) should not affect the result on the flop since they are independant events afaik



I'll preface this by saying I've never used a solver, but from what I've seen in the posts here they work by creating a tree based on the allowed bet sizes, so it seems that allowing different sizes on the turn and river will give different results on the flop. It is essentially solving two different games when the bet sizes are different. I understand the way the solvers work is by creating a 'limit' game with the fixed sizings you input, and then solving that game.

Disclaimer Im bad but 

LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Oct 09 2018 08:36. Posts 14615


  On October 07 2018 23:58 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



PIO works the same with sizes you write them down in that exact format, SP is slightly different.

the inputs for turn and river (cars, sizes, etc) should not affect the result on the flop since they are independant events afaik



That's wrong afaik
When you solve flop it solves the remainder of the tree as well, including the options you give it
They aren't independent

none of the solvers are actual NL GTO nowhere near it
You are solving a simplified game, but a game that runs over multiple streets nonetheless

NL5 Grinder 4Life 

LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Oct 09 2018 08:44. Posts 14615


  On October 07 2018 23:58 Baalim wrote:
can it run aggregate reports?


yeah for postflop
not sure how these work yet

NL5 Grinder 4Life 

 

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