check/fold river?

I would bet larger every street and you will have around a half pot size bet by the river. I don't think folding river is ever an option based on how committed you are in this hand. you already put almost 10% of your stack in preflop, and by the river it is already 33%.

why? obviously I could be wrong, but I disagree with what you said..I bet smaller so that im not committed by the river so that I can get away from a hand where im beat, and win more money by making better postflop decisions instead of just saying "I have KK, the money is going in". If I want to be pot committed by the river, isnt it a good idea to have somewhere close to the nuts first? both QQ and AA beat me, and they are the hands I expect villian to have most when he doesnt fold the flop. AQ, JJ and 99 are possibilities, and maybe some other random underpairs or draws like JTs. What hands am I expecting to be able to stack when I pot commit myself here, that outnumber the combinations of AA, QQ and AQ that stack me? (or just AA/QQ if I commit myself before the river). 33% of my stack commits me to shove the other 67% in bad? wtf

On December 18 2014 15:14 DragOn_ wrote: why? obviously I could be wrong, but I disagree with what you said..I bet smaller so that im not committed by the river so that I can get away from a hand where im beat, and win more money by making better postflop decisions instead of just saying "I have KK, the money is going in". If I want to be pot committed by the river, isnt it a good idea to have somewhere close to the nuts first? both QQ and AA beat me, and they are the hands I expect villian to have most when he doesnt fold the flop. AQ, JJ and 99 are possibilities, and maybe some other random underpairs or draws like JTs. What hands am I expecting to be able to stack when I pot commit myself here, that outnumber the combinations of AA, QQ and AQ that stack me? (or just AA/QQ if I commit myself before the river). 33% of my stack commits me to shove the other 67% in bad? wtf

why would you bet small when you have over pair on the flop in a 3bet pot?

SPR going into the flop is about 5, so if you bet full pot flop (1) and shove turn (4), your opponent has far worse odds calling with just top pair. The way you structure your bet makes your opponent have way better odds to continue calling. Every single card from flop turn river are bad cards for you (also for him), why wouldn't you charge your hand higher so that instead you avoiding making mistakes, you let your opponent make bad calls? I mean I am totally bad, but I have seen you post hands like this and ask if you could c/f, you already committed so much and reached the commitment threshold on the flop, your decision making should be pretty straightforward in this hand, right?

Ok it makes sense that you would want to bet larger to prevent yourself being drawn out on in general, but really what hands are drawing out on me here? The flop is paired and rainbow..im not scared of my opponent hitting a big draw at all. I am scared of being dominated by AA or QQ, and I want to bet to extract value from the weaker part of his range, which would be folded out if I bet huge a lot of the time I think. And having an overpair on the flop is great, but in this situation the value of my KK is reduced enormously by the Q on the flop, because that means the most significant holding hed normally stack off with that I beat, QQ, now beats me. What will he now stack off with that I can comfortably get it in with on that flop? If he does hes only bluff catching. A lot of players would fold AQ preflop in these positions, and JJ/TT would rather check back the river or fold earlier in the hand. I need to consider both our ranges, which I dont think youve really addressed in the advice given so far. By the time I get to the turn, hes folded most of the stuff that im beating, and I think by shoving either on the flop or turn, but especially if I bet really large like full pot and shove turn, im definitely getting it in bad.

Another reason why I dont use pot flop/shove turn is it would be really hard to balance it with my 3bet bluffs, which I sometimes cbet with, or with any overcard hands like AK and AQ, that want to see the river if they havent hit yet. If I had the nuts or near nuts and I was in danger of being drawn out, I think potting and shoving would be great, but in most situations I think im isolating myself against a stronger range by doing so and reducing the playability of my entire range

what do you mean I reached commitment threshold on the flop? a 3bet+cbet = i have to shove? that seems pretty ludacrous to me..would you just shove your entire 3betting range once you cbet?

On December 18 2014 15:14 DragOn_ wrote: why? obviously I could be wrong, but I disagree with what you said..I bet smaller so that im not committed by the river so that I can get away from a hand where im beat, and win more money by making better postflop decisions instead of just saying "I have KK, the money is going in". If I want to be pot committed by the river, isnt it a good idea to have somewhere close to the nuts first? both QQ and AA beat me, and they are the hands I expect villian to have most when he doesnt fold the flop. AQ, JJ and 99 are possibilities, and maybe some other random underpairs or draws like JTs. What hands am I expecting to be able to stack when I pot commit myself here, that outnumber the combinations of AA, QQ and AQ that stack me? (or just AA/QQ if I commit myself before the river). 33% of my stack commits me to shove the other 67% in bad? wtf

so you give him qq aa, then aq jj 99 and some draws and underpairs? at this point, with your thinking, you're ahead of his range...

you are 3betting from the SB vs his MP raise,his calling range there should be rather wide.

You can then either check this flop with your hand and let him hang himself,or bet,but if you bet it should indeed be a bit more on flop and turn.

As played,river is a check.Your push basically makes JJ and TT to fold,he only calls you with better hands most of the time (9x,Qx,AA).
If its a check call or check fold depends on betting size and type of villain.

On December 19 2014 06:42 Mardagg wrote: you are 3betting from the SB vs his MP raise,his calling range there should be rather wide. You can then either check this flop with your hand and let him hang himself,or bet,but if you bet it should indeed be a bit more on flop and turn. As played,river is a check.Your push basically makes JJ and TT to fold,he only calls you with better hands most of the time (9x,Qx,AA). If its a check call or check fold depends on betting size and type of villain.

Agree, but im not sure why youre also saying I should bet more. What is the advantage to it? If I had indeed bet more on the flop and turn, id be pot committed by river and wouldnt be able to check/fold I think?
Edit: Are you saying get it in on the turn, or make it so that each bet is a similar % of pot instead of 1/2, 1/2, 1pot? My plan was to bet about the same each street but didnt calculate it all that well so I was left with too much on the river. If youre advocating something like a pot flop, turn shove id like to know the reason behind it

no,more like 7ish on flop and 14 on the turn,still enough room to fold but more easy to get all money in if necessary.