Robotic surgical system "da Vinci" - the future? - Page 2

On May 19 2015 12:11 dnagardi wrote: Show nested quote + On May 19 2015 07:07 Baalim wrote:   On May 12 2015 19:44 MyAnacondaDont wrote: Have you ever thought that humans aren't the final evolution of life but maybe artificial intelligence is? That is almost a certainty considering they lack the "soul, consciousness and feelings I would say thats unlikely it depends on what you measure it, yes they can reproduce, yes they can make billion times more tasks than a human but without the ones mentioned above, its just emptiness, not evolution

Soul? you are not fit to have this conversation if you are going to say such things.


Simple animals are not conscious, but when they develop are more advanced brain through evolution they gain this ability.

Feelings are not intelligent, where is the intelligence in anger or envy? actually they are irrational responses from our genetic coding, they do appear on complex brains but the higher the intelligence usually the more detached to these genetic impulses

^lol

On May 22 2015 13:25 Stroggoz wrote: But if they are carved in the same way that computers are, a computer the size of the universe that put out millions of operations per second on the tiniest particles, would not be able to compute what humans are capable of doing.

how do you reach that conclusion? Because this seems to me like new age "limitless human brain" shenanigans

On May 23 2015 18:32 lebowski wrote: ^lol Show nested quote + On May 22 2015 13:25 Stroggoz wrote: But if they are carved in the same way that computers are, a computer the size of the universe that put out millions of operations per second on the tiniest particles, would not be able to compute what humans are capable of doing. how do you reach that conclusion? Because this seems to me like new age "limitless human brain" shenanigans

i don't know what this new age thing your referring to is. I'm going from what i've studied on theory of computation, and complexity theory in mathematics which is a field of mathematics that came out of the ideas of Kurt Godel, and Alan Turing. There are lots of things that cannot be computed by a computer the size of the universe. For example, a computer the size of the universe could not compute this problem in mathematics:

If a traveling salesman decides to travel(lets say hes flying) to 1000 cities, and has to travel to each one exactly once and returning to their starting point on their last flight. To tell a computer to find a path where that happens, the computer has to find all the different combinations of how he can travel, which is 2^1000 combinations. A computer the size of a universe that was manipulating every particle and running for a trillion years could not compute that. that's a mathematical fact and problems like these are called Hamiltonian paths. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamiltonian_path_problem and the mathematical term for how long it would take (much more than a trillion years) is called time complexity, denoted by Ta(n)

For further reading i would look up the problem 'NP=P'

What i'm getting at here is that i think that human decision problems are much more complex than the above problem. Just the things and possibilities they encounter in everyday life would create very big decision trees. So even if human brains operate like computers do, then they would instantaneously implode because they couldn't handle it, imo.

But i don't think they operate like computers do in the first place. Since they are creative, something that's fairly obvious from observing the behavior of human being. And we can all understand computers are not creative.

And i agree with Baal on the soul concept, someone needs to define what a soul is before we can start talking about souls in a comprehensible manner.

On May 23 2015 01:46 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On May 19 2015 12:11 dnagardi wrote:   On May 19 2015 07:07 Baalim wrote:   On May 12 2015 19:44 MyAnacondaDont wrote: Have you ever thought that humans aren't the final evolution of life but maybe artificial intelligence is? That is almost a certainty considering they lack the "soul, consciousness and feelings I would say thats unlikely it depends on what you measure it, yes they can reproduce, yes they can make billion times more tasks than a human but without the ones mentioned above, its just emptiness, not evolution Soul? you are not fit to have this conversation if you are going to say such things. Simple animals are not conscious, but when they develop are more advanced brain through evolution they gain this ability. Feelings are not intelligent, where is the intelligence in anger or envy? actually they are irrational responses from our genetic coding, they do appear on complex brains but the higher the intelligence usually the more detached to these genetic impulses

Whatever feelings are, they are a complex phenomenon which we understand almost nothing about. It seems strange to call feelings irrational as well.

As for your reply to me, it's unclear what endowments evolution is going to give us in the future. Yes its true that animals have gotten more intelligent over time, but the likelihood that evolution will endow us with the ability to understand and create AI is a guess. It's like guessing that we will be endowed with the ability to visualize 4 dimensional space. Why do you think that this is so likely to happen, when there are so many things we are not endowed with and no animal is?

On May 24 2015 09:30 Stroggoz wrote: Show nested quote + On May 23 2015 01:46 Baalim wrote:   On May 19 2015 12:11 dnagardi wrote:   On May 19 2015 07:07 Baalim wrote:   On May 12 2015 19:44 MyAnacondaDont wrote: Have you ever thought that humans aren't the final evolution of life but maybe artificial intelligence is? That is almost a certainty considering they lack the "soul, consciousness and feelings I would say thats unlikely it depends on what you measure it, yes they can reproduce, yes they can make billion times more tasks than a human but without the ones mentioned above, its just emptiness, not evolution Soul? you are not fit to have this conversation if you are going to say such things. Simple animals are not conscious, but when they develop are more advanced brain through evolution they gain this ability. Feelings are not intelligent, where is the intelligence in anger or envy? actually they are irrational responses from our genetic coding, they do appear on complex brains but the higher the intelligence usually the more detached to these genetic impulses Whatever feelings are, they are a complex phenomenon which we understand almost nothing about. It seems strange to call feelings irrational as well. As for your reply to me, it's unclear what endowments evolution is going to give us in the future. Yes its true that animals have gotten more intelligent over time, but the likelihood that evolution will endow us with the ability to understand and create AI is a guess. It's like guessing that we will be endowed with the ability to visualize 4 dimensional space. Why do you think that this is so likely to happen, when there are so many things we are not endowed with and no animal is?

Feelings are irrational because they arent born in reason, you dont feel jealousy because you think its the most reasonable course of action, you just feel it., feelings are natures way to do our genes bidding

What does evolution have to do with we creating AI? evolution takes millions of years, Im saying we will very likely create sentient AI in a timeline of hundreds of years... not millions -.-

On May 24 2015 09:16 Stroggoz wrote: Show nested quote + On May 23 2015 18:32 lebowski wrote: ^lol   On May 22 2015 13:25 Stroggoz wrote: But if they are carved in the same way that computers are, a computer the size of the universe that put out millions of operations per second on the tiniest particles, would not be able to compute what humans are capable of doing. how do you reach that conclusion? Because this seems to me like new age "limitless human brain" shenanigans i don't know what this new age thing your referring to is. I'm going from what i've studied on theory of computation, and complexity theory in mathematics which is a field of mathematics that came out of the ideas of Kurt Godel, and Alan Turing. There are lots of things that cannot be computed by a computer the size of the universe. For example, a computer the size of the universe could not compute this problem in mathematics: If a traveling salesman decides to travel(lets say hes flying) to 1000 cities, and has to travel to each one exactly once and returning to their starting point on their last flight. To tell a computer to find a path where that happens, the computer has to find all the different combinations of how he can travel, which is 2^1000 combinations. A computer the size of a universe that was manipulating every particle and running for a trillion years could not compute that. that's a mathematical fact and problems like these are called Hamiltonian paths. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamiltonian_path_problem and the mathematical term for how long it would take (much more than a trillion years) is called time complexity, denoted by Ta(n) For further reading i would look up the problem 'NP=P' What i'm getting at here is that i think that human decision problems are much more complex than the above problem. Just the things and possibilities they encounter in everyday life would create very big decision trees. So even if human brains operate like computers do, then they would instantaneously implode because they couldn't handle it, imo. But i don't think they operate like computers do in the first place. Since they are creative, something that's fairly obvious from observing the behavior of human being. And we can all understand computers are not creative. And i agree with Baal on the soul concept, someone needs to define what a soul is before we can start talking about souls in a comprehensible manner.

this makes sense, but I don't understand why you think the creative/decision processes of the brain could never be replicated; computers won't always be built the same way we build them today as well (assuming a fallout type of apocalypse doesn't ensue)

On May 25 2015 18:54 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On May 24 2015 09:16 Stroggoz wrote:   On May 23 2015 18:32 lebowski wrote: ^lol   On May 22 2015 13:25 Stroggoz wrote: But if they are carved in the same way that computers are, a computer the size of the universe that put out millions of operations per second on the tiniest particles, would not be able to compute what humans are capable of doing. how do you reach that conclusion? Because this seems to me like new age "limitless human brain" shenanigans i don't know what this new age thing your referring to is. I'm going from what i've studied on theory of computation, and complexity theory in mathematics which is a field of mathematics that came out of the ideas of Kurt Godel, and Alan Turing. There are lots of things that cannot be computed by a computer the size of the universe. For example, a computer the size of the universe could not compute this problem in mathematics: If a traveling salesman decides to travel(lets say hes flying) to 1000 cities, and has to travel to each one exactly once and returning to their starting point on their last flight. To tell a computer to find a path where that happens, the computer has to find all the different combinations of how he can travel, which is 2^1000 combinations. A computer the size of a universe that was manipulating every particle and running for a trillion years could not compute that. that's a mathematical fact and problems like these are called Hamiltonian paths. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamiltonian_path_problem and the mathematical term for how long it would take (much more than a trillion years) is called time complexity, denoted by Ta(n) For further reading i would look up the problem 'NP=P' What i'm getting at here is that i think that human decision problems are much more complex than the above problem. Just the things and possibilities they encounter in everyday life would create very big decision trees. So even if human brains operate like computers do, then they would instantaneously implode because they couldn't handle it, imo. But i don't think they operate like computers do in the first place. Since they are creative, something that's fairly obvious from observing the behavior of human being. And we can all understand computers are not creative. And i agree with Baal on the soul concept, someone needs to define what a soul is before we can start talking about souls in a comprehensible manner. this makes sense, but I don't understand why you think the creative/decision processes of the brain could never be replicated; computers won't always be built the same way we build them today as well (assuming a fallout type of apocalypse doesn't ensue)

There already are different types of computers like quantum computers for example. But i don't know anything on the topic. As far as replicating creative/decision process in the brain goes. Well there are people who have completely mapped the neurons in small organisms with less than a 1000 neurons. They haven't been able to predict the behavior of the organism from doing this. And there are people who think mapping the whole human brain will help us give an understanding into AI. I think its extremely optimistic. Although, they will probably gain other useful information from doing this.