Bloated Pot Spots (Part 1 of Possibly Many)

On November 27 2011 18:28 TalentedTom wrote: check 1-2 bet #3, maybe even check #3

This feels like a troll post. Possibly...

If we're called on flop 1 after we cbet, are we trying to get all in on most bricked turns after a ~2/3 continuation on the flop? I'm assuming that even an idiot would four bet aces preflop with that action, so as long as they don't raise us are we trying to take down the pot on the turn against a range that has to be something like sets/combo draws/QQ/KK/AKs/AQs/KQs? I don't know that I'm good enough to lay down to a flop reraise here hahaha.

Flop 2 is one of those "fuck this game" flops and I'd probably lose a bet cursing. I think check/fold is retarded but loses you less money in the long run against four loose idiots.

Flop 3 I think check/calling and leading the turn on anything but an ace is pretty straightforward. If we get played back at we snapcall and it's a cooler if they had 99 or turned a boat? I don't think there are a lot of AA here except from maybe the villain immediately to our left and even then I wouldn't believe him. It's hard to convince me any idiot is playing 22 here and we're scared of exactly 99, 6 combos of AA, the case kings which we have initiative on and 3 combos of the turn card if it's ~above an 8? I think if it's checked through and a 7-10 hits (not including a 9 which we're happy about?) we can make a stronger case to bet/fold turn, but if they bet after my check I think I'm just calling flop and betting turn pretty heavily if not shipping anything under a 10. Seems stupid not to try to take this one down on the turn or see a showdown if we're called.

Enlighten me on this.

I mean its hard to flop sets. Your hand is just way ahead of your opponents for this reason, and since giving a free card is terrible on flops 1 and 2 its an easy bet. Once you've been shoved on with the odds your getting even against the deepest villain its an easy call. You shouldn't necessarily feel happy about it, but with infinite combo draws in their range there's just no way you can fold. You could resort to stoving it if you aren't convinced. If the deepest villain is a buyin deeper we can turn off autobet.

Hand 3 is a bit different, and in this case the idea that we are never betting with AKo does not apply. Your opponents have no reason not to think you aren't just repping KK with AKo on such a dry flop, so they'll sometimes get stubborn w/ their small pairs.

On December 08 2011 05:25 offsuit wrote: Flop 3 I think check/calling and leading the turn on anything but an ace is pretty straightforward.

That's about the least straightforward play there is. Its essentially the same as a flop check/raise except you're giving your opponent a free card.

I see. That makes a lot of sense. I think I was trying to extract value by masking my hand strength but I guess that's really easy to see through? And I guess we're not looking to give anyone a free card, yeah, that's true, even if we aren't scared of much.

Also I think check/call has the added value of maybe bringing along more money than a check/raise into a turn most hands are not likely to improve on, but I guess defending our pot/reverse deception is more important? If that's the case then leading seems strong.

And I think in all three of these hands with five players to the flop at least one person after us is going to make a bet. Is there any situation where it would check through to the turn on 1/2?

Last post and I'll be out of your thread .

stacks are simply too shallow. say everyone has 3-4k stacks...then flop 2 is a very easy chk/evaluate.

i feel you jc, live poker has a much different dynamic

also there's something about getting dealt AA/KK like once a day vs being dealt it online over 4 tables of 60 hands/hour.

The best line here would be to stare at the board long and hard...grab some chips...try to shuffle but fail cuz we are too "nervous" then reluctantly bet. when someone shoves u SNAP CALL.

On December 07 2011 11:21 JonnyCosMo wrote: Show nested quote + On November 27 2011 18:28 TalentedTom wrote: check 1-2 bet #3, maybe even check #3 This feels like a troll post. Possibly...

I think betting in hand #1 and 2 looks too strong since we are almost never bluffing OOP vs 3 other plaeyers here on these board textures. I think also if you check and the action goes bet, call fold, you can easily shove, or anything similar to that - furthermore if the action goes bet call raise we have a preety easy fold. I really like checking here with the intention of check all in way more then betting OOP into 3 players.

I think hand #3 is the best flop to bet since our bluffing range is huge,its a good spot / board texture for a very small bet with our entire 3b range

After you squeeze, the entire table is looking / focused at you to fire a c-bet, when you dont, its gonna open up a ton of action that would not be there had you c-bet. When you bet people are gonna play very straight vs your bet, your basically playing your equity and hoping u went outflopped, where if u check, people are gonna take a ton of stabs at the pot with the assumption your always check folding your AK

I actually really like Tom's thought process and did think he might've been trolling earlier lol

It's kinda genius actually. I like it

TalentedTom is like secret genius imo

On December 20 2011 11:00 TalentedTom wrote: After you squeeze, the entire table is looking / focused at you to fire a c-bet, when you dont, its gonna open up a ton of action that would not be there had you c-bet. When you bet people are gonna play very straight vs your bet, your basically playing your equity and hoping u went outflopped, where if u check, people are gonna take a ton of stabs at the pot with the assumption your always check folding your AK

not in live play they wont.

On December 28 2011 20:47 wobbly_au wrote: Show nested quote + On December 20 2011 11:00 TalentedTom wrote: After you squeeze, the entire table is looking / focused at you to fire a c-bet, when you dont, its gonna open up a ton of action that would not be there had you c-bet. When you bet people are gonna play very straight vs your bet, your basically playing your equity and hoping u went outflopped, where if u check, people are gonna take a ton of stabs at the pot with the assumption your always check folding your AK not in live play they wont.

Care to elaborate?

Or are you just going to leave us with this awesome and insightful post

I was saying that live players arent going to simply assume you have AK because you 3bet and checked. And if when they do they arent going to bet, because lets face it live players are way passive and i can see more live players checking toppair even in the last to act position in a 3bet pot than those who dont.

On December 29 2011 07:01 wobbly_au wrote: I was saying that live players arent going to simply assume you have AK because you 3bet and checked. And if when they do they arent going to bet, because lets face it live players are way passive and i can see more live players checking toppair even in the last to act position in a 3bet pot than those who dont.

I don't know how much live experience you have but I really disagree with this post

I'd think most live players would always assume you would bet over pairs in all 3 spots and when you don't, then they expect you to have nothing which is why I wouldn't put it past your avg live player to bluff when checked to in these spots. They would FOR SURE be betting something with top pair a good amt

On January 02 2012 05:21 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On December 29 2011 07:01 wobbly_au wrote: I was saying that live players arent going to simply assume you have AK because you 3bet and checked. And if when they do they arent going to bet, because lets face it live players are way passive and i can see more live players checking toppair even in the last to act position in a 3bet pot than those who dont. I don't know how much live experience you have but I really disagree with this post I'd think most live players would always assume you would bet over pairs in all 3 spots and when you don't, then they expect you to have nothing which is why I wouldn't put it past your avg live player to bluff when checked to in these spots. They would FOR SURE be betting something with top pair a good amt

They might bet to "see where theyre at" but that makes it a better spot to check-shove as a bluff since they'll bet/fold a buncha value hands. It really depends on the villains in the hand. If they are your average winning live regfish I think wobbly is right and they will check back any top pair as well as bad overpairs for fear of the check shove and betting is probably better since they will call with their crappy overpairs at least once and pair+straight draws and only ship a really strong range.

edit: i was referring to a hand where you sqz out of the blinds and have multi way action on a coordinated board fwiw; didn't think about any other situations but it applies to a lesser extent on the dry boards too I think.

On December 20 2011 11:00 TalentedTom wrote: After you squeeze, the entire table is looking / focused at you to fire a c-bet, when you dont, its gonna open up a ton of action that would not be there had you c-bet. When you bet people are gonna play very straight vs your bet, your basically playing your equity and hoping u went outflopped, where if u check, people are gonna take a ton of stabs at the pot with the assumption your always check folding your AK

I disagree strongly to bolded. Players will play straight forward regardless of your bet. It's a huge mistake not to bet when you'll lose value, lose initiative, give a freecard and also open your self up to making bigger mistake on future streets whether by folding the best hand or calling with worst.

^I kind of agree with that. I was "impressed" by nittness of live players in London casinos to the point I had to reevaluate my bluffing/vbetting ranges .
(nl200/400 GBP though). Higher it's the opposite from what I've seen . So it depends.