Am I retarded?

I didn't fold because I timed out.
Submitted by : LemOn[5thF]

PokerStars Game #52208565625: Holdem No Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2010/11/05 14:22:52 WET [2010/11/05 10:22:52 ET]
Table Meges 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Bolshoi412 ($52.25 in chips)
Seat 2: LightLedy ($23.20 in chips)
Seat 3: AcesBurned ($55.75 in chips)
Seat 4: DoC.LemOn ($50 in chips)
Seat 5: ezymonyp ($53.80 in chips)
Seat 6: echo87 ($48.50 in chips)
LightLedy: posts small blind $0.25
AcesBurned: posts big blind $0.50

Holecards
Dealt to DoC.LemOn
DoC.LemOn: raises $1 to $1.50
ezymonyp: folds
echo87: calls $1.50
Bolshoi412: folds
LightLedy: folds
AcesBurned: folds

Flop (Pot : $3.75)

   
DoC.LemOn: bets $3
echo87: calls $3

Turn (Pot : $9.75)

   
DoC.LemOn: bets $7
echo87: raises $8.50 to $15.50
DoC.LemOn: calls $8.50

River (Pot : $40.75)

   
DoC.LemOn: checks
echo87: bets $28.50 and is all-in
LightLedy said, "go"
DoC.LemOn has timed out
DoC.LemOn: folds
Uncalled bet ($28.50) returned to echo87
echo87 collected $38.75 from pot

Summary
Total pot $40.75 | Rake $2
Board  
Seat 1: Bolshoi412 (button) folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 2: LightLedy (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: AcesBurned (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: DoC.LemOn folded on the River
Seat 5: ezymonyp folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 6: echo87 collected ($38.75)

yes quite possibly

yes, you are

you are way too pesimistic... gotta find the reason behind this. Untill you do you wont make money

On November 07 2010 10:35 TalentedTom wrote: you are way too pesimistic... gotta find the reason behind this. Untill you do you wont make money

The reads we have are not enough? He is the guy that you minraise steal and he never plays back, and cbets 40% with 10% raising range and then has 18% turn aggression.
This and the reads I mentioned in the OP were a reason behind this. I just can't see what fd's other than KJhh we can expect a passive rock to play like this?

It looks pretty bare if you assign him a pretty narrow range like you do

+ Show Spoiler +

HOWEVER, if we add slow played KK and AA, and even throw in Q-Ts, it changes up

+ Show Spoiler +

I understand your thought process, and while I think it makes sense, I still feel we have to call here. I don't play nl50, so I may be wrong, but I don't think we can start leveling ourselves this much with such monster hands, as the typical results in the future will crush our souls

He 3bets AA KK I am 80++% sure he doesn't seem to be aware of his image and is a losing player. I saw him 3bet AQo in the blinds. QT actually beats us on the river lol but I don' think he calls it with decent frequency preflop anyway.

I actually think he will have like half combos of QQ here as I'd think he will 3bet them like half the time, so all range that beats me is 5.5 combos of sets and quads.

I just can't come up with enough hands that are not nuts, he plays such a retarded passive game and doesn't seem to bluff at all... I mean 50% cbet 18% turn aggression 0/4 raise cbet when you have ultra strong ranges preflop?


Btw you keep adding 100% of all combos of a hand in your stove calcs. And don't worry that you don't play NL50 as its not relevant, he is more like a NL10 FR passive nit type of player.

On November 07 2010 11:11 LemOn[5thF] wrote: He 3bets AA KK I am 80++% sure he doesn't seem to be aware of his image and is a losing player. I saw him 3bet AQo in the blinds. QT actually beats us on the river lol but I don' think he calls it with decent frequency preflop anyway Btw you keep adding 100% of all combos of a hand in your stove. I actually think he will have like half combos of QQ here as I'd think he will 3bet them like half the time, so all range that beats me is 5.5 combos of sets and quads. I just can't come up with enough hands that are not nuts, he plays such a retarded passive game and doesn't seem to bluff at all... I mean 50% cbet 18% turn aggression when you have ultra strong ranges preflop?

He could be 3betting AA and KK a majority of the time, but perhaps he saw you as someone who would bet into him multiple streets a majority of the time without much. What was your current image at the table?

On November 07 2010 11:24 Carthac wrote: Show nested quote + On November 07 2010 11:11 LemOn[5thF] wrote: He 3bets AA KK I am 80++% sure he doesn't seem to be aware of his image and is a losing player. I saw him 3bet AQo in the blinds. QT actually beats us on the river lol but I don' think he calls it with decent frequency preflop anyway Btw you keep adding 100% of all combos of a hand in your stove. I actually think he will have like half combos of QQ here as I'd think he will 3bet them like half the time, so all range that beats me is 5.5 combos of sets and quads. I just can't come up with enough hands that are not nuts, he plays such a retarded passive game and doesn't seem to bluff at all... I mean 50% cbet 18% turn aggression when you have ultra strong ranges preflop? He could be 3betting AA and KK a majority of the time, but perhaps he saw you as someone who would bet into him multiple streets a majority of the time without much. What was your current image at the table?

Thats what I am trying to say, he clearly does not pay attention to dynamics or image. I thought calling would be levelling myself

call and if he plays so terribly like you say, you should have no problem winning it back from him very soon? if it's a close decision, it basically doesn't matter what you do so spend your time focusing on other spots that will affect your winrate more.

On November 07 2010 11:25 rS.Wisdom[9] wrote: call and if he plays so terribly like you say, you should have no problem winning it back from him very soon? if it's a close decision, it basically doesn't matter what you do so spend your time focusing on other spots that will affect your winrate more.

Wtf man, how can you 'win it back very soon' from a passive rock apart from taking his blinds? Sounds like a joke to me. If it is you are awesome :D
And agree that when I call even if I'm right I lose like $10-22 here in a spot that comes up once per 200k hands if ever at higher limits as this kind of player is simply not there.
However, now it became a question of self confidence -.-

On November 07 2010 11:25 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Show nested quote + On November 07 2010 11:24 Carthac wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:11 LemOn[5thF] wrote: He 3bets AA KK I am 80++% sure he doesn't seem to be aware of his image and is a losing player. I saw him 3bet AQo in the blinds. QT actually beats us on the river lol but I don' think he calls it with decent frequency preflop anyway Btw you keep adding 100% of all combos of a hand in your stove. I actually think he will have like half combos of QQ here as I'd think he will 3bet them like half the time, so all range that beats me is 5.5 combos of sets and quads. I just can't come up with enough hands that are not nuts, he plays such a retarded passive game and doesn't seem to bluff at all... I mean 50% cbet 18% turn aggression when you have ultra strong ranges preflop? He could be 3betting AA and KK a majority of the time, but perhaps he saw you as someone who would bet into him multiple streets a majority of the time without much. What was your current image at the table? Thats what I am trying to say, he clearly does not pay attention to dynamics or image. I thought calling would be levelling myself

Well fish don't recognize image if you are more of a nit, but fish definitely do recognize bullies, and they can't stand it. They do not like to be bullied. Any previous history with the guy, even if it was just a hand or 2? He could be thinking he mega trapped you Hellmuth style

I believe your call is closer than people are making it out to be, but still, would be a monster fold

Can we call because fuck him?

On November 07 2010 11:31 Carthac wrote: Show nested quote + On November 07 2010 11:25 LemOn[5thF] wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:24 Carthac wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:11 LemOn[5thF] wrote: He 3bets AA KK I am 80++% sure he doesn't seem to be aware of his image and is a losing player. I saw him 3bet AQo in the blinds. QT actually beats us on the river lol but I don' think he calls it with decent frequency preflop anyway Btw you keep adding 100% of all combos of a hand in your stove. I actually think he will have like half combos of QQ here as I'd think he will 3bet them like half the time, so all range that beats me is 5.5 combos of sets and quads. I just can't come up with enough hands that are not nuts, he plays such a retarded passive game and doesn't seem to bluff at all... I mean 50% cbet 18% turn aggression when you have ultra strong ranges preflop? He could be 3betting AA and KK a majority of the time, but perhaps he saw you as someone who would bet into him multiple streets a majority of the time without much. What was your current image at the table? Thats what I am trying to say, he clearly does not pay attention to dynamics or image. I thought calling would be levelling myself Well fish don't recognize image if you are more of a nit, but fish definitely do recognize bullies, and they can't stand it. They do not like to be bullied. Any previous history with the guy, even if it was just a hand or 2? I believe your call is closer than people are making it out to be, but still, would be a monster fold Can we just call because fuck him?

Yeah I actually wanted to call just to prove my point and show how awesome I am... And then I realised I do this way too often. I even offered him $10 after the hand but he wouldn't bite (nuts imo). And no history, we were across the table so I don't think I even was in a hand with him.

I just couldn't see what specific worse hands he plays like this...

On November 07 2010 11:33 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Show nested quote + On November 07 2010 11:31 Carthac wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:25 LemOn[5thF] wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:24 Carthac wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:11 LemOn[5thF] wrote: He 3bets AA KK I am 80++% sure he doesn't seem to be aware of his image and is a losing player. I saw him 3bet AQo in the blinds. QT actually beats us on the river lol but I don' think he calls it with decent frequency preflop anyway Btw you keep adding 100% of all combos of a hand in your stove. I actually think he will have like half combos of QQ here as I'd think he will 3bet them like half the time, so all range that beats me is 5.5 combos of sets and quads. I just can't come up with enough hands that are not nuts, he plays such a retarded passive game and doesn't seem to bluff at all... I mean 50% cbet 18% turn aggression when you have ultra strong ranges preflop? He could be 3betting AA and KK a majority of the time, but perhaps he saw you as someone who would bet into him multiple streets a majority of the time without much. What was your current image at the table? Thats what I am trying to say, he clearly does not pay attention to dynamics or image. I thought calling would be levelling myself Well fish don't recognize image if you are more of a nit, but fish definitely do recognize bullies, and they can't stand it. They do not like to be bullied. Any previous history with the guy, even if it was just a hand or 2? I believe your call is closer than people are making it out to be, but still, would be a monster fold Can we just call because fuck him? Yeah I actually wanted to call just to prove my point and show how awesome I am... And then I realised I do this way too often. I even offered him $10 after the hand but he wouldn't bite. And no history, we were across the table so I don't think I even was in a hand with him

The hand is just played so awkwardly by him. 13/11 does not seem like a complete idiot, but why would he not raise more on the turn? Just so weird

BTW, why did you not get the money in on the turn? What was your plan if he shoved on you here and a heart rolled off? Did you think you had the best hand?

On November 07 2010 11:39 Carthac wrote: Show nested quote + On November 07 2010 11:33 LemOn[5thF] wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:31 Carthac wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:25 LemOn[5thF] wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:24 Carthac wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:11 LemOn[5thF] wrote: He 3bets AA KK I am 80++% sure he doesn't seem to be aware of his image and is a losing player. I saw him 3bet AQo in the blinds. QT actually beats us on the river lol but I don' think he calls it with decent frequency preflop anyway Btw you keep adding 100% of all combos of a hand in your stove. I actually think he will have like half combos of QQ here as I'd think he will 3bet them like half the time, so all range that beats me is 5.5 combos of sets and quads. I just can't come up with enough hands that are not nuts, he plays such a retarded passive game and doesn't seem to bluff at all... I mean 50% cbet 18% turn aggression when you have ultra strong ranges preflop? He could be 3betting AA and KK a majority of the time, but perhaps he saw you as someone who would bet into him multiple streets a majority of the time without much. What was your current image at the table? Thats what I am trying to say, he clearly does not pay attention to dynamics or image. I thought calling would be levelling myself Well fish don't recognize image if you are more of a nit, but fish definitely do recognize bullies, and they can't stand it. They do not like to be bullied. Any previous history with the guy, even if it was just a hand or 2? I believe your call is closer than people are making it out to be, but still, would be a monster fold Can we just call because fuck him? Yeah I actually wanted to call just to prove my point and show how awesome I am... And then I realised I do this way too often. I even offered him $10 after the hand but he wouldn't bite. And no history, we were across the table so I don't think I even was in a hand with him The hand is just played so awkwardly by him. 13/11 does not seem like a complete idiot, but why would he not raise more on the turn? Just so weird BTW, why did you not get the money in on the turn? What was your plan if he shoved on you here and a heart rolled off? Did you think you had the best hand?

I didn't but I can't fold a set to one bet can I? :D. Although I did think he plays FDs like this like...close to never. And QT is rarely in his range
Same logic as why people don't tell you specific combos that they think he plays like this but still agree with thread title. Zeebo's theorem

On November 07 2010 11:42 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Show nested quote + On November 07 2010 11:39 Carthac wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:33 LemOn[5thF] wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:31 Carthac wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:25 LemOn[5thF] wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:24 Carthac wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:11 LemOn[5thF] wrote: He 3bets AA KK I am 80++% sure he doesn't seem to be aware of his image and is a losing player. I saw him 3bet AQo in the blinds. QT actually beats us on the river lol but I don' think he calls it with decent frequency preflop anyway Btw you keep adding 100% of all combos of a hand in your stove. I actually think he will have like half combos of QQ here as I'd think he will 3bet them like half the time, so all range that beats me is 5.5 combos of sets and quads. I just can't come up with enough hands that are not nuts, he plays such a retarded passive game and doesn't seem to bluff at all... I mean 50% cbet 18% turn aggression when you have ultra strong ranges preflop? He could be 3betting AA and KK a majority of the time, but perhaps he saw you as someone who would bet into him multiple streets a majority of the time without much. What was your current image at the table? Thats what I am trying to say, he clearly does not pay attention to dynamics or image. I thought calling would be levelling myself Well fish don't recognize image if you are more of a nit, but fish definitely do recognize bullies, and they can't stand it. They do not like to be bullied. Any previous history with the guy, even if it was just a hand or 2? I believe your call is closer than people are making it out to be, but still, would be a monster fold Can we just call because fuck him? Yeah I actually wanted to call just to prove my point and show how awesome I am... And then I realised I do this way too often. I even offered him $10 after the hand but he wouldn't bite. And no history, we were across the table so I don't think I even was in a hand with him The hand is just played so awkwardly by him. 13/11 does not seem like a complete idiot, but why would he not raise more on the turn? Just so weird BTW, why did you not get the money in on the turn? What was your plan if he shoved on you here and a heart rolled off? Did you think you had the best hand? I didn't but I can't fold a set to one bet can I? :D. Although I did think he plays FDs like this like...close to never.

Yeah, I was just wondering why you weren't backflip break dance fistpump shoving when he raised you on the turn

yeah just call 1000%

On November 07 2010 11:26 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Show nested quote + On November 07 2010 11:25 rS.Wisdom[9] wrote: call and if he plays so terribly like you say, you should have no problem winning it back from him very soon? if it's a close decision, it basically doesn't matter what you do so spend your time focusing on other spots that will affect your winrate more. Wtf man, how can you 'win it back very soon' from a passive rock apart from taking his blinds? Sounds like a joke to me. If it is you are awesome :D And agree that when I call even if I'm right I lose like $10-22 here in a spot that comes up once per 200k hands if ever at higher limits as this kind of player is simply not there. However, now it became a question of self confidence -.-

'soon' doesnt mean within 10 hands, just that if he has a seriously flawed game, you should be winning at a high rate vs him overall, including stealing lots of small pots over and over that more than make up for 1 pot.

On November 07 2010 13:36 rS.Wisdom[9] wrote: Show nested quote + On November 07 2010 11:26 LemOn[5thF] wrote:   On November 07 2010 11:25 rS.Wisdom[9] wrote: call and if he plays so terribly like you say, you should have no problem winning it back from him very soon? if it's a close decision, it basically doesn't matter what you do so spend your time focusing on other spots that will affect your winrate more. Wtf man, how can you 'win it back very soon' from a passive rock apart from taking his blinds? Sounds like a joke to me. If it is you are awesome :D And agree that when I call even if I'm right I lose like $10-22 here in a spot that comes up once per 200k hands if ever at higher limits as this kind of player is simply not there. However, now it became a question of self confidence -.- 'soon' doesnt mean within 10 hands, just that if he has a seriously flawed game, you should be winning at a high rate vs him overall, including stealing lots of small pots over and over that more than make up for 1 pot.

but why would I do that?
Like you play against a fish, and you know he never pots river without the nuts, and a flush card just falls, but you call anyway with your set because you will get the money back later?

And in this example I am cross table against him...If anything his presence is awesome for exploiting other players and being able to steal 100% but even then I don't see why you would pay off his stupidly nitty passive strategy just because you like your hand....

If you will argue that he can have combos of hands that add to the amount of his nut hands despite his description, or that there is always the 'wtf' factor which can be quite large because its just 130 hands and we fold just because of his narrow 5.5 combo range that beats us then I'll take it, but arguing that you pay off someone's exploitable style just because you can make the money back and your hand is pretty really seems perverse.

And yeah I still don't get it, he called 3% of hands regardless of position so far.

Pocket pairs without AAKK and with 50% QQ are 6%...for him to call scs with HH including QTs preflop, have he would have to have 9%+ call pfr and even then I think he doesn't play them like this ever :/