AQs vs light pf 3bet

Hey guys, I'm a former limit player who just switched over to nl, so I'm sorry if this hand seems completely standard or if my questions seem really basic.

I'd seen this guy 3bet someone's UTG pf raise with KJo, so I'm 4betting for value. What should I do on the flop? Is there value in a bet, or should I be betting for protection? I'm guessing I should probably fold to a c/r as I don't really want to be stacking off with MP. Also, how should the turn play go?

Submitted by : spencer

Full Tilt Poker Game #11586557299: Table Your (6 max) - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:32:09 ET - 2009/04/09
Seat 1: label55 ($25)
Seat 2: TrueMen ($40.15)
Seat 3: pimpjuice31388 ($60.07)
Seat 4: 4RAYVEN ($22.04)
Seat 5: manny218 ($30.90)
Seat 6: Hero ($26.54)
4RAYVEN posts the small blind of $0.10
manny218 posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #3

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
Hero raises to $1
label55 folds
TrueMen folds
pimpjuice31388 folds
4RAYVEN raises to $1.75
manny218 has 15 seconds left to act
manny218 folds
Hero has 15 seconds left to act
Hero raises to $4.50
4RAYVEN calls $2.75

Flop (Pot : $9.25)

   
4RAYVEN checks
Hero ?

$5 fold to shove.

Check back most turns

C/c most small river bets, c/f big bets.

On April 09 2009 02:31 edzwoo wrote: $5 fold to shove. Check back most turns C/c most small river bets, c/f big bets.

if our plan is to fold to a shove why can't we just take off another card and see what happens? we're not afraid of very much, and hes probably a huge spewtard. :O i like to check back, bet turn if checked to, and then.. i dunno, maybe bet river. i dont want 3 streets here anyway. i'm probably pretty bad huh :O

On April 09 2009 02:31 edzwoo wrote: $5 fold to shove. Check back most turns C/c most small river bets, c/f big bets.

I would bet 6$ or 6.5$ on the flop to avoid an induced bluff raise though. Most of the cbets less than 2 thirds of the pot are not respected in NL25.

bet/folding is just tossing all that beautiful equity out the window. Check behind and play the turn

still don't like pre, I'd call to keep in shit I dominate. As played I check and I'm not looking to fold unless turn is like a J or a T.

On April 09 2009 08:46 SakiSaki wrote: bet/folding is just tossing all that beautiful equity out the window. Check behind and play the turn

This is get value out of hands where the line goes: check/check, bet/call, check/check?

My opinion is that the villain seems like a bit of a spaz, so I would hate it if we got blown off the best hand because he thought our flop check was weak.

On April 09 2009 08:46 SakiSaki wrote: bet/folding is just tossing all that beautiful equity out the window. Check behind and play the turn

On April 09 2009 10:38 DustySwedeDude wrote: still don't like pre, I'd call to keep in shit I dominate. As played I check and I'm not looking to fold unless turn is like a J or a T.

also, just a side-note, it seems clear that this particular opponent is 3-betting KJo because he's an idiot who overvalues pretty-looking hands, but in general you shouldn't automatically think "i've seen him 3-bet KJo so i'm 4-betting AQo for value," because

1. a smart player often won't be making it a consistent habit of 3-betting KJo, he'll be doing it in situations where you have so little information about him that he can get away with it. once he shows it down, he'll adjust.
2. just because he 3-bets KJo doesn't mean he wants to pay you off against your oop-4bet with worse than AQ. if you DO 4-bet AQ and he's unwilling to stack off light, then you're 4-betting for PROTECTION, not for value. important subtle difference

On April 09 2009 15:30 edzwoo wrote: Show nested quote + On April 09 2009 08:46 SakiSaki wrote: bet/folding is just tossing all that beautiful equity out the window. Check behind and play the turn This is get value out of hands where the line goes: check/check, bet/call, check/check? My opinion is that the villain seems like a bit of a spaz, so I would hate it if we got blown off the best hand because he thought our flop check was weak.

the point is that you check behind the flop AND don't get blown off the best hand because you aren't intending to fold later...

ANY time you "don't want to get blown off the best hand" you just call instead of folding. and if you'd rather not call a LOT of money (since your opponent will have a higher bluff % in smaller pots), then just check whenever you have the chance.

On April 09 2009 15:37 [vital]Myth wrote: Show nested quote + On April 09 2009 15:30 edzwoo wrote:   On April 09 2009 08:46 SakiSaki wrote: bet/folding is just tossing all that beautiful equity out the window. Check behind and play the turn This is get value out of hands where the line goes: check/check, bet/call, check/check? My opinion is that the villain seems like a bit of a spaz, so I would hate it if we got blown off the best hand because he thought our flop check was weak. the point is that you check behind the flop AND don't get blown off the best hand because you aren't intending to fold later... ANY time you "don't want to get blown off the best hand" you just call instead of folding. and if you'd rather not call a LOT of money (since your opponent will have a higher bluff % in smaller pots), then just check whenever you have the chance.

Yup, I get that.

Oh, and as for your last post, I think we can 4bet for value because the guy isn't fullstacked and he min3bet pre (doing it once before with KJo, so he isn't one of those guys that only min3bets with AA). He's definitely not a smart player.

EDIT: Oh wait, okay you already mentioned he's a fish

this is a super standard WA/WB spot where checking is the clear best play, if he continues to check later streets we can go for some value

Check please.

obvious check

On April 09 2009 15:30 edzwoo wrote: Show nested quote + On April 09 2009 08:46 SakiSaki wrote: bet/folding is just tossing all that beautiful equity out the window. Check behind and play the turn This is get value out of hands where the line goes: check/check, bet/call, check/check? My opinion is that the villain seems like a bit of a spaz, so I would hate it if we got blown off the best hand because he thought our flop check was weak.

flop check doesn't look that much weaker than betting actually, considering we balance our range