Simple pre-flop spot question.

Online 6max 5/10. Regular on CO opens. He has 20% steal on CO, 70% fold to 3bet (overall, not CO), plays fairly solid, occasionally makes moves. We're in the SB. Our image is solid. BB is a reg as well with a fairly tight squeezing range of 5-7%.

What's the bottom of your range for broadway cards (a broadway card is T,Q,J,K,A obviously, so a combination of two of those) for 3betting and for flatting (if you ever flat here at all)? I would appreciate if you could also give an explanation on why you feel that's right.

stats show we're playing against a nit . even though he folds 70% overall to 3b he may fold less from the CO and even less in position.

since BB is solid (and will play even moreso in line because of CO's image) i would probably flat a fair amount of all suited broadways and fold sometimes if I've been particularly active and 3b all shitty offsuit broadways sometimes and fold them about half the time when I've been more active (K10o Q10o J10o QJo KJo). I'm not sure if 3b or calling QJo or KJo is more correct in this instance but I guess its more about how tough he is postflop. The tougher he is the more we should choose to 3b over call. If he's really tough I might elect to fold even the suited shitty broadways and 3b them sometimes. I'm never folding J10s, QJs, or KJs vs anyone tho because those flop way too well.

Assuming he never 4b unless he has nuts (JJ+,AK) i will 3b all KQ/AQ/AK/AJ and flat them occasionally to strengthen my calling range. The more he 4b the less I 3b KQ/AJ/AQ unless he 4b so much that I can 3b/shove but this doesn't really seem the case against this nit. Also, the tougher he is postflop the more I will elect to flat these hands since they flop so well I can easily "PHIL HELLMUTH TRAP" him and let him valuecut himself.

I'm also assuming we're 100bb deep. I feel 100bb deep pf decisions are the weakest part of my game and I would love to see what everyone else thinks. As for the missing info about villain...well I'd like to see what ppl's opinions are in all scenarios.

With a solid reg in the BB my flatting range will be pretty narrow. The worst offsuit hand I flat there is probably KQo, and the worst suited is something like QTs. I don't really think its good to even call small pairs here anymore. As for 3 betting, his call 3bet to 4 bet ratio should be looked at, but for the most part 3betting decisions will be based more on timing than stats or hand strength. I may flat AQs and I may 3 bet Q8s. With just a 20% steal percentage however I probably won't 3bet complete air or hands like A8o, cuz he wont have enough junk in his range that just instafolds pre.

yea i completely agree that the decision to 3b comes more with timing and gameflow than stats. however, i wonder if its really not profitable to flat KJo or QJo in this spot. with the bb being so tight we don't really have to fear a squeeze much, and with the CO's opening range being only 20% of hands do we really want to 3b into such a strong range (and even stronger range when called) when we do choose to play them? is flatting really that bad, especially if the CO doesn't really apply much pressure and if he plays fairly straightforward?

In a live setting I think I always prefer a flatcall here. People squeeze far less from the BB and play far more straightforward. In addition, they are easier to read and make a lot more postflop mistakes. Online 100bb deep is clearly different, because even if villain is straightforward, he will almost never be making any mistakes on any board texture. Does the inherent strength of the hand make up for the fact that we are OOP? What about suited connectors, how are we playing those hands vs this particular villain? Small pairs? I know the standard answer is to 3b, but can someone make a good argument for calling in the SB vs this particular villain and this particular BB?

I think part of it just has to do with multi tabling laziness. I read somewhere once that kjo is the losingest hand in poker, playing it oop vs 1 or 2 solid players while ur six-tabling just isn't worth the effort. It doesn't help ur range and doesn't really help your image. That said I think most regs fear playing oop too much. Many have literally no flatting range from the sb. It's a bit frustrating when they mindlessly 3bet their ranges against you when they could be flatting to entice a fishy BB to see a flop.

I agree with flatting more unsuited broadway hands live and online or live as the BB gets fishier I'm opening my flatting range up quite a bit.

Good points IMO. I like that you mentioned flatting kjo oop just isn't worth the effort while multitabling and I totally agree with that. It's been a while since I've played 6 or more tables tho :o).

Do you think it becomes better or worse to 3b offsuit broadways when the CO is on tilt? This usually entails villain defending 3bets wider and herocalling more, but also means villain fires random barrels more.

finally a good thread as opposed to the garbage cosmo posts.

I'll comment after lunch.

On August 25 2011 22:56 wobbly_au wrote: finally a good thread as opposed to the garbage cosmo posts. I'll comment after lunch.

looooooool

I dunno what's correct, but 20% is an extremely tight range for the CO. I'd prob 3bet/flat AJo+ KQo+ and all suited broadway combinations, making my decision whether to call or 3bet based on what I've been doing mostly throughout the session/past sessions and how he's been reacting. I would just straight up fold KJo and QJo oop vs such a tight range, I would go as far as to say I'd still fold those hands in the BB if the SB had folded vs such a tight range

On August 25 2011 22:56 wobbly_au wrote: finally a good thread as opposed to the garbage cosmo posts. I'll comment after lunch.

LOOOL.

Except I like Cosmo's hands.

I think 20% on the CO is tight, but not as tight as you guys make it out to be.

22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,A9o+,KTo+,QJo. In a 5-6handed game you probably should open a bit more, but if you factor in that from time to time you have a loose 3bettor on the BTN it probably averages to slightly above 20% for most regs (22-24%ish?).

A 70% fold to 3 bet is also tight, but not absurdly tight (I believe 0Human0 has a very similar, if not even higher, fold to 3bet). I purposely picked 70% though so there would be very few hands we have dominated after we 3bet a hand like KJ.

Well I read all the posts, feel like I learned alot and agree with most of what Northface and Tomson said.

nothing much to add really..

Good read.

Most stacked thread in so long. All green stars pretty much. And wobbly would probably be one too if he wasn't always getting banned/ HuHu always says good things.

Just want to thank LP's best here for sharing knowledge with pretty bad players like me (been on LP for about a year - just recently decided to start posting in the last month)

So thanks LP elite.

Just the thread I needed as sb play is one of the toughest things for me. Thank you

see i want to comment in threads like this but i always fear it will expose too much about my game. i'll never get a green star =[. let's talk about something else guys!

On August 26 2011 18:06 DooMeR wrote: see i want to comment in threads like this but i always fear it will expose too much about my game. i'll never get a green star =[. let's talk about something else guys!

lolol wat a sick nit.

On August 26 2011 15:10 wobbly_au wrote: Well I read all the posts, feel like I learned alot and agree with most of what Northface and Tomson said. nothing much to add really.. Good read.

1+

alot of my 2 cents have already been posted by previous fellas but

these situations imo comes down alot to what type of player the BB is, i think when a reg opens the CO and ur in the SB most regs dont pay to much attention and have their same old "hardly ever flat/3bet alot" type of standard build in their head on almost every table they play on, but i think u should always pay alot of attention to the BB

is he a fish? then flat tons of more hands to play a pot with him, even oop the reg is gonna play pretty straight forward + u can lead more postflop and get the reg to play pretty faceup etc

if the BB is very good id fold alot more unless the CO is a fish, vs some BB's i even fold hands like KJo, ATo, even against BU opens from time to time (and i play 31/26 over 700k hands in SH only) or 3bet them 100%, i never flat basically if the BB is good, but vs standrad reg in the BB i flat/3bet all of them offsuit/suited broadways + suited connectors almost everytime, but im more inclined to 3bet against the better the BB is until the BB is like a top tier player it becomes more of a fold with those hands even against a pretty bad CO reg

and with a fish in the big blind i hardly ever 3 bet anything, not even my nutty hands against this CO type of player

against megasqueeze BB's i think its pretty fine to flat some strong hands from the SB and start building a backraise 4bet dynamic with the BB + if the CO is a reg who can play back he should start 4betting a fair amount of bluffs so u can ship and take down alot of good pots preflop against wide ranges where if u would 3bet on your own, u would just pick up 3bb instead against the same type of weak hands that sometimes bluff when the BB is a big squeezer (if we assume the CO is still a tight player, but probably would play back more against the BB high squeezer), even if u kinda overrep ur hand doing that with a hand like TT for example from the SB wich isnt like a superhappy fistpump get it in spot against a tight CO reg, i think its a good way of playing hands like that in that specific situation cuz ur gonna pick up alot of pots preflop

there is also a dynamic where i think i play well compared to other good regs, where if i think the CO reg is good enough/thinks im good enough to expect me to flat the SB with valuehands since the BB is a fish, then i would 3bet more for value cuz i expect him to expect me to 3bet alot of bluffs + also be good enough to know that his 4bet then becomes very bluffy/light so i would be shoveing as a bluff more often over his 3bet so i would really just start right away with 3bet/jamming wide for value right away against this type of good regular if we find ourself in a dynamic with a fish last to act preflop, it can both be limping/in the BB its kind of similar both of them)

i think it becomes better to not 3bet bluff/5bet bluffjam those guys, and just do it for value straight away instead cuz its such a standardish playback spot between 2 good players


this is not an answer to your question, alittle offtopic (but still on topic), but there is so much more to this situation then just if the BB and CO is 2 nits

and i think u never should think about poker like haveing a SB flatting/3betting range for example, and then be happy with it

everything in poker is fluid (or liquid) + Show Spoiler +

and every situation against every type of player at ur table becomes unique

I think how often he will 4b bluff is relevant and its important how he perceives your SB 3b range, I think most people do assume its gonna be pretty wide.
Its obviously very situational but if I had to give a general answer Id say I mostly fold the weaker ones like JTo,QTo etc and some mix of 3betting/calling with the better ones like KQ/KJs adjusting it depending on how he responds.

On August 27 2011 06:22 longple wrote: Show nested quote + On August 26 2011 15:10 wobbly_au wrote: Well I read all the posts, feel like I learned alot and agree with most of what Northface and Tomson said. nothing much to add really.. Good read. 1+ alot of my 2 cents have already been posted by previous fellas but these situations imo comes down alot to what type of player the BB is, i think when a reg opens the CO and ur in the SB most regs dont pay to much attention and have their same old "hardly ever flat/3bet alot" type of standard build in their head on almost every table they play on, but i think u should always pay alot of attention to the BB is he a fish? then flat tons of more hands to play a pot with him, even oop the reg is gonna play pretty straight forward + u can lead more postflop and get the reg to play pretty faceup etc if the BB is very good id fold alot more unless the CO is a fish, vs some BB's i even fold hands like KJo, ATo, even against BU opens from time to time (and i play 31/26 over 700k hands in SH only) or 3bet them 100%, i never flat basically if the BB is good, but vs standrad reg in the BB i flat/3bet all of them offsuit/suited broadways + suited connectors almost everytime, but im more inclined to 3bet against the better the BB is until the BB is like a top tier player it becomes more of a fold with those hands even against a pretty bad CO reg and with a fish in the big blind i hardly ever 3 bet anything, not even my nutty hands against this CO type of player against megasqueeze BB's i think its pretty fine to flat some strong hands from the SB and start building a backraise 4bet dynamic with the BB + if the CO is a reg who can play back he should start 4betting a fair amount of bluffs so u can ship and take down alot of good pots preflop against wide ranges where if u would 3bet on your own, u would just pick up 3bb instead against the same type of weak hands that sometimes bluff when the BB is a big squeezer (if we assume the CO is still a tight player, but probably would play back more against the BB high squeezer), even if u kinda overrep ur hand doing that with a hand like TT for example from the SB wich isnt like a superhappy fistpump get it in spot against a tight CO reg, i think its a good way of playing hands like that in that specific situation cuz ur gonna pick up alot of pots preflop there is also a dynamic where i think i play well compared to other good regs, where if i think the CO reg is good enough/thinks im good enough to expect me to flat the SB with valuehands since the BB is a fish, then i would 3bet more for value cuz i expect him to expect me to 3bet alot of bluffs + also be good enough to know that his 4bet then becomes very bluffy/light so i would be shoveing as a bluff more often over his 3bet so i would really just start right away with 3bet/jamming wide for value right away against this type of good regular if we find ourself in a dynamic with a fish last to act preflop, it can both be limping/in the BB its kind of similar both of them) i think it becomes better to not 3bet bluff/5bet bluffjam those guys, and just do it for value straight away instead cuz its such a standardish playback spot between 2 good players this is not an answer to your question, alittle offtopic (but still on topic), but there is so much more to this situation then just if the BB and CO is 2 nits and i think u never should think about poker like haveing a SB flatting/3betting range for example, and then be happy with it everything in poker is fluid (or liquid) + Show Spoiler + and every situation against every type of player at ur table becomes unique

this is pretty good stuff. i feel like a lot of what you do relies on first expecting your opponents to be a certain level of player. this doesn't necessarily hold true and i would be a little more careful to overestimating ppl and then level myself in the process. this especially applies to multitablers who aren't necessarily paying attention to intricate table dynamics. i used to do this a lot and still do, just to let u know cause i think ur a great player with lots of talent .

anyways, how would you adjust ur ranges and set up different dynamics from the sb if you were 200+bb deep in all the relevant spots you mentioned in your previous post? when bb is a huge fish its not a relevant spot because you are always flatting the sb, but other spots where you want to set up different dynamics, how do you change them based on relative stacksize?

On August 28 2011 10:17 n0rthf4ce wrote: Show nested quote + On August 27 2011 06:22 longple wrote:   On August 26 2011 15:10 wobbly_au wrote: Well I read all the posts, feel like I learned alot and agree with most of what Northface and Tomson said. nothing much to add really.. Good read. 1+ alot of my 2 cents have already been posted by previous fellas but these situations imo comes down alot to what type of player the BB is, i think when a reg opens the CO and ur in the SB most regs dont pay to much attention and have their same old "hardly ever flat/3bet alot" type of standard build in their head on almost every table they play on, but i think u should always pay alot of attention to the BB is he a fish? then flat tons of more hands to play a pot with him, even oop the reg is gonna play pretty straight forward + u can lead more postflop and get the reg to play pretty faceup etc if the BB is very good id fold alot more unless the CO is a fish, vs some BB's i even fold hands like KJo, ATo, even against BU opens from time to time (and i play 31/26 over 700k hands in SH only) or 3bet them 100%, i never flat basically if the BB is good, but vs standrad reg in the BB i flat/3bet all of them offsuit/suited broadways + suited connectors almost everytime, but im more inclined to 3bet against the better the BB is until the BB is like a top tier player it becomes more of a fold with those hands even against a pretty bad CO reg and with a fish in the big blind i hardly ever 3 bet anything, not even my nutty hands against this CO type of player against megasqueeze BB's i think its pretty fine to flat some strong hands from the SB and start building a backraise 4bet dynamic with the BB + if the CO is a reg who can play back he should start 4betting a fair amount of bluffs so u can ship and take down alot of good pots preflop against wide ranges where if u would 3bet on your own, u would just pick up 3bb instead against the same type of weak hands that sometimes bluff when the BB is a big squeezer (if we assume the CO is still a tight player, but probably would play back more against the BB high squeezer), even if u kinda overrep ur hand doing that with a hand like TT for example from the SB wich isnt like a superhappy fistpump get it in spot against a tight CO reg, i think its a good way of playing hands like that in that specific situation cuz ur gonna pick up alot of pots preflop there is also a dynamic where i think i play well compared to other good regs, where if i think the CO reg is good enough/thinks im good enough to expect me to flat the SB with valuehands since the BB is a fish, then i would 3bet more for value cuz i expect him to expect me to 3bet alot of bluffs + also be good enough to know that his 4bet then becomes very bluffy/light so i would be shoveing as a bluff more often over his 3bet so i would really just start right away with 3bet/jamming wide for value right away against this type of good regular if we find ourself in a dynamic with a fish last to act preflop, it can both be limping/in the BB its kind of similar both of them) i think it becomes better to not 3bet bluff/5bet bluffjam those guys, and just do it for value straight away instead cuz its such a standardish playback spot between 2 good players this is not an answer to your question, alittle offtopic (but still on topic), but there is so much more to this situation then just if the BB and CO is 2 nits and i think u never should think about poker like haveing a SB flatting/3betting range for example, and then be happy with it everything in poker is fluid (or liquid) + Show Spoiler + and every situation against every type of player at ur table becomes unique this is pretty good stuff. i feel like a lot of what you do relies on first expecting your opponents to be a certain level of player. this doesn't necessarily hold true and i would be a little more careful to overestimating ppl and then level myself in the process. this especially applies to multitablers who aren't necessarily paying attention to intricate table dynamics. i used to do this a lot and still do, just to let u know cause i think ur a great player with lots of talent . anyways, how would you adjust ur ranges and set up different dynamics from the sb if you were 200+bb deep in all the relevant spots you mentioned in your previous post? when bb is a huge fish its not a relevant spot because you are always flatting the sb, but other spots where you want to set up different dynamics, how do you change them based on relative stacksize?

yea ofc u cant expect to much about ur opponents level/thought processes and i probably judge people/make decisions based on XXX quicker then other players, but thats just kinda my way of of playing

what i mean is that im making assumptions about a player thought process and what he would do/how he would play a hand and then i go for it 100% if thats what i think in the moment, sometimes its wrong but then its just to adjust to it, and it frequently changes as dynamic grows but atleast its a way of making decisions for me, and i never feel lost pretty much because of that, its impossible to know in some situations against some players, actually it is most of the time

but u have to make decisions based on something atleast

not sure if its possible to follow what i mean by this, its kinda hard to express ^^

deep i normally 3bet kind of the same stuff against most players, more suited stuff in general since stack to potratio is bigger u cant go to wrong building pots with suited decent hands against people u dont fear

against better players i generally 3bet more suited stuff aswell, hands that are more playable, and less offsuit broadways since im gonna get outplayed a fair bit postflop i like 200bb+ deep i like to be the one showing up with the straight/flush type of hands and less big 1 pair hands

and kinda hit the boards people try to make moves against AA for example, there is so much to say and this thread seems kinda dead so i wont go to deep but like in general i like to missrepresent my range and show up with the standard "stack overpair hands" when playing uberdeep