10/20 Funky 6-way spot w nut flush draw.

Kind of interesting spot from today. Starting information might run on a little, but bare with me.

Playing in a pretty softish loose/passive 10/20 line-up. The huge fish at the table limps in EP, I isolate to $100 w/ . Oldest guy at our table calls behind me, young bad kid on the button calls, SB who is a good winning regular calls. BB and the limper both call.

Effective Stacks:

SB (Winning Reg, Tight/Aggro, in his 40s) - $2,000
BB (Loose Fish) - $4,500
EP Limper (Loose / Passive huge mark) - $6,000
Me - $6,000
Old guy behind me - $6,000
Young kid on the button - $1,100

6-ways to the flop (Oh don't you love live pokers lol). Flop: (Pot: $600)
3 people check to me. I bet $440 (Discuss?), both players in position behind me fold. SB starts tanking and thinking about what to do. Then makes the call. My read on SB range here is lost on me since I feel like he doesn't defend hands like 87s from the SB in this spot, and he 3 bet squeezes JJ to get it in vs me most of the time, to give you a basic idea. With that said, I thought my flop bet gets him to fold hands as strong as 99 a high % of the time. (Might be optimistic here, but I look real strong and the guy is a tight winning reg). BB Folds, and the EP Limper doesn't waste too much time and calls as well. His range isn't exactly super sloppy here. The guy will overcall any 8X hands to play them cautiously along w overcalling any kind of decent draw (65o type hands is a decent draw for him). 3-ways to the turn.

Turn: (Pot: $1,920)
Both players check to me. SB has ~$1500 left, and the EP Limper is still has well over $5k. Discuss turn spot??

how does sb not defend suited connectors when the flop is sure to go at least 5 way with a huge fish? are u sure about that?...

i think both betting and chking or fine. if i've been losing i chk if ive been winning and showing down good hands i bet (this influences our FE vs fish)

if i bet i bet 1180 and don't mind calling a shove vs the sb, as sometimes we are even ahead (QJ/J10/Q10hh should snap get it in here) and I don't think fish is really c/r all that much (if he does its an easy fold). if sb folds and bb calls i probably give up on most blanks unless they are "scary" from a fish's perspective (Q or J).

its kinda nice that we have the Ah so we don't have to worry about our equity vs the Ax of hearts. this in addition with us being in position makes our hand extremely easy to play

also, the turn bet hinges on the fact that sb does not defend suited connectors. assuming he folds 89/66/77 on the flop and chk/ships any set, the only hands he can get it in here with are the aforementioned QJ/J10/Q10hh, 9xhh and 99/1010 (he might fold 1010). We have okay equity vs this range and some FE vs his flop calling range. We definitely have FE vs the drooler and most rivers are going to be easy to play vs him.

the argument for chking behind is when our FE vs the fish is reduced such that hes not even folding 56 on the turn. I mean, he doesn't really care so much that you look super strong. he knew u had a draw!

really depends on your read on the sb

I like betting here sb can't really have much.

I would just bet strong ont he turn here and enough to put sb all in, don't mind a call from the fish and he's very rarely gonna be cr'ing us with your read.

bet 1500, and fire most blanks vs the fish and on cards we hti obv.

On July 12 2011 07:36 kaboom wrote: really depends on your read on the sb I like betting here sb can't really have much. I would just bet strong ont he turn here and enough to put sb all in, don't mind a call from the fish and he's very rarely gonna be cr'ing us with your read. bet 1500, and fire most blanks vs the fish and on cards we hti obv.

Why the hell would we fire blanks on the fish..... that is sooooo -ev, unless i am totally missing something. I typically get flamed for my advice cuz im bad but this one I'm pretty sure about...

it depends on the fish and how he plays but based on cosmo's description and a typical fish at these stakes if they check a blank on the river they are folding at a % that is profitable for us to bluff.

Mainly since you can size your 3rd barrel as a relative cheap bluff vs these type of players who don't really read into bet sizing and pott odds but more on the fact they faced 3 bets postflop and have a medium strength hand.

obv lots of things to consider on top of this but generally speaking this is a very profitable spot to bet, bet, bet.

the way you wrote it, or i interpreted it, is that you fire 1500 so that tag is already all-in so what you are suggesting on the river is to bluff a fish who doesn't fold w/ ace high just so that we can lose the pot to the tag. made zero sense.

Now i guess after re-reading you mean only fire blanks on river if tag folds turn. Makes a lot more sense now :D although I think if tag folds and fish calls turn, bluffing him on the river might not be great, esp since missed draws that you beat make up so much of what you fold out anyway

The tag is of almost no concern to me in the hand. His preflop range will still be wide enough that there's enough call flop/fold turn hands in his range that a solid semibluff is almost never going to be bad.

I think the issue is whether fish folds blank rivers. If flush draw misses, straight draw misses, and the fish can beat AK then there's a lot of reasons for a stationy fish to just look you up. If you're up against the type of fish that just tries to make 2pair+ and gives up if not, that's a different story, but with an average "fish" read i don't think barreling river is good. Without river FE to back up a turn semibluff vs the fish, i think just checking through is best.

just overbet like 3k

I like betting very strong to make the fish fold blufcatchers or checking back for free equity. I dont like a smallish bet where the fish might easily call it with a bluff catcher and call with a bluffcatcher on the river again / folding mostly if you hit.

On July 13 2011 23:57 soberstone wrote: the way you wrote it, or i interpreted it, is that you fire 1500 so that tag is already all-in so what you are suggesting on the river is to bluff a fish who doesn't fold w/ ace high just so that we can lose the pot to the tag. made zero sense. Now i guess after re-reading you mean only fire blanks on river if tag folds turn. Makes a lot more sense now :D although I think if tag folds and fish calls turn, bluffing him on the river might not be great, esp since missed draws that you beat make up so much of what you fold out anyway

fish will call with lots of pair + draw hands that he will fold to river pressure. pretty surprised that other posters are reiterating this...just shows the level of LP is really high now

bet or check here depends on what you think they will do. i liked all of the replies in this thread.

On July 20 2011 17:58 Joe wrote: I like betting very strong to make the fish fold blufcatchers or checking back for free equity. I dont like a smallish bet where the fish might easily call it with a bluff catcher and call with a bluffcatcher on the river again / folding mostly if you hit.

The pot is 2k with 5k effective, if we bet too large it REALLY sucks if fish actually shoves on us. We don't have odds to call but then it is obvious we had a very bad read on his range.

If fish doesn't shove and opts to c/c turn (if we bet a nice smaller amount), it splits his range and he will fold everything to a river bet / shove.

Therefore, betting turn is optimal if we are firing blanks (percieved, true blanks) vs fish a good amount of the time (as we have the read that his range is mostly call turn, fold river). If as Joe says, he will call turn AND river then we should just chk turn anyway.

If for whatever reason we feel we have limited FE in the spot, check becomes better and better. It is interesting if K or A rolls off the check and we are lead into, but beyond what I can imagine in my head at the moment.

ninja edit: TAG only has 1.5, not 3

If you make your bet 2800 for example, you will have the odds to call the shove

Thx, lotsa good stuff here in this thread

Was a little confused at the turn spot while playing (mainly caz you just dont see these 6-way bloated pot scenarios too often).

Results:

+ Show Spoiler +

After a minute of thinking I just checked behind. River came , sb leads for $750, fish calls. SB has 88, fish has

im not sure i love betting the flop in that spot...

On July 23 2011 10:49 nolan wrote: im not sure i love betting the flop in that spot...

Yea, was thinking same thing. Was hoping we'd get more discussion on that. I kinda auto-bet and thinking back on it, I'm not entirely sure I like considering it gets me in this spot waaay too often imo.

All these threads needs results IMO.

I posted results O_O

thanks for posting these cosmo, i've learn a lot about live game dinamics and ranges