NL25 3bet pot KK on A turn

Villain was running about 29/22 with 10% 3bet over a small 60 hands, however he was playing very straight forward and never showed anything down other than a good hand. He snap folded to 2 3bets earlier. I was running about 35/25 with 12% 3bet.

At this point everyone else at the table was changing their playstyle against me. Seat 6 started vbetting bigger against me, fish was talking to me in chat and started calling multiple streets with bottom pair. I don't know if this guy was paying attention though.

He stacked me earlier on a Q97r board where we were 3way with the fish and he halfpot/3bet 77 and got it in vs my AA.

Side note, UTG is the fish so in hindsight there is probably some merit to flatting instead of 3betting, but I didn't notice the limp until I already 3bet.

Submitted by : edzwoo

***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** Poker Stars
$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, March 09, 08:32:24 ET 2011
Table Rotanev XIII Real Money
Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: Hero $25.00 USD - VPIP: 22, PFR: 16, 3B: 6, AF: 3.0, Hands: 463654
Seat 2: Player2 $24.21 USD - VPIP: 28, PFR: 4, 3B: 4, AF: 0.7, Hands: 57
Seat 3: Player3 $49.78 USD - VPIP: 23, PFR: 15, 3B: 7, AF: 1.0, Hands: 80
Seat 4: Player4 $25.00 USD - VPIP: 16, PFR: 13, 3B: 10, AF: 2.0, Hands: 55
Seat 5: Player5 $10.40 USD - VPIP: 11, PFR: 11, 3B: 7, AF: 2.0, Hands: 38
Seat 6: Player6 $55.63 USD - VPIP: 33, PFR: 23, 3B: 8, AF: 4.3, Hands: 48
Player6 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Hero posts big blind [$0.25 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero [ ]
Player2 calls [$0.25 USD]
Player3 raises [$1.25 USD]
Player4 folds
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
Hero raises [$3.25 USD]
Player2 folds
Player3 calls [$2.25 USD]

Flop (Pot : $7.10)

   
Hero bets [$5.25 USD]
Player3 calls [$5.25 USD]

Turn (Pot : $17.60)

   
Hero

Aaaahhh. Just typed a response then hit back button accidentally - so now abbreviated version:

Basically I said odd for him to flat your big-ish cbet on that board. Don't expect many regs to float this board that light. Range looks something like 99/TT/JJ & occassional QQ/KK/AA, + AdX,JTs,T9s,QJs,KJs,KQ, 8d7d maybe. If you check not much bets you beat so I plan to c/f and v bet river small if he checks back.

If you bet I don't see much worse calling as you are basically committing on the turn (about a psb left?)

I would bet turn since you can still represent bluffs on the turn, but if you check turn bet river I feel like your hand is more face up and Jx, QQ, and ??? will be less prone to call and are not going to bet out.

also if you feel he plays straightfoward I wouldn't be concerned with getting check raised on the turn by worst hands =)

But if we bet turn are we betting for value as I am not sure what % Jx/QQ/draws will call. And assuming we bet something like half pot if we get raised we are getting something like 5:1 on a call, which sucks pretty hard to have to fold.

As this is a 3bet pot, especially with our aggro image, I don't think checking the turn and betting river turns our hand face up. If he checks back we can be expected to bet the river thin for value and maybe make a bad bluff - he "almost" never calls flop with a float so he still has to decide how thin we are value betting or if we are capable of taking a bet/chk/bet line as a bluff.

Too much money in there and too likely our hand is good to not shove imo, we certainly can't bet/fold, we have less than a pot sized bet left, it'd be kinda gross to bet like 1/6th of the pot and fold. A shove is certainly +EV, since he won't have a better hand often enough to make it -EV even if he only calls with hands that have correct equity to do so, I guess it might not be the most +EV move, perhaps check fold or checking to get it in is better vs some villains, but it looks like a spot where I could show up with a lot of semi bluffs so I normally just shove hoping he hero calls with TT, Jx, 9x all of which he highly likely checks back on the turn. Fuck him if he sucked out etc

Check with the intention of calling a shove, or shove yourself if you care about balance (so probably check). I'd probably just play it however you would if you had AK here, although obv AK is better.

I prefer a c/f here cause he will occasionally float with AQo type of hands and also not enough info on villain to know if he would raise a nuts FD on flop, believe me not a major % of regs would get their money in on the flop w nuts FD. Since its 25nl i consider the opponent incompetent by default hence he might occasionally have 55 too so all sets are possible. I dont see a hand we r beating that would call us on the turn if we shove, so if we r doing that we r turning our hand into a bluff. I really think u overexaggerate if you think TT, Jx, 9x would be in his calling range. The way i see it he would be checking back most of the hands we beat so we can extract value on the river.


However all of this is based upon the fact that i take the villain by default as a passive (in 3bet pots) incompetent 25nl reg

Doubt there will be big difference in EV overall depending on villains pokah skillz (if we c/f or shove that is)

On March 09 2011 13:48 Spitfiree wrote: I prefer a c/f here cause he will occasionally float with AQo type of hands and also not enough info on villain to know if he would raise a nuts FD on flop, believe me not a major % of regs would get their money in on the flop w nuts FD. Since its 25nl i consider the opponent incompetent by default hence he might occasionally have 55 too so all sets are possible. I dont see a hand we r beating that would call us on the turn if we shove, so if we r doing that we r turning our hand into a bluff. I really think u overexaggerate if you think TT, Jx, 9x would be in his calling range. The way i see it he would be checking back most of the hands we beat so we can extract value on the river. However all of this is based upon the fact that i take the villain by default as a passive (in 3bet pots) incompetent 25nl reg Doubt there will be big difference in EV overall depending on villains pokah skillz (if we c/f or shove that is)

so for the small % of times he does float or sets we always c/f? makes no god damn sense

You are forgeting nuts fd is probably a big % of his range. He wont bet if he has Jx/9x, if we check his bets are eitherr Ax, set or a bluff. And if we shove he s folding everything worse and calling us with everything that beats us so we are turning our hand into a bluff - and tbh im idealess if this is a good or bad thing to do here but its probably a bad cause of the SD value + chance to sometimes vbet the river.

If you think im way off please explain. Im just describing what my thought proccess would be here. If you think its bad please do explain it will make a difference to me

P.S. I know heroes)engage is open shoving this like 90% of time cuz lul 25nl passive donks who ll call us w 9x here :D

bigger 3b size pre, 1-2 klicks when in the blinds, and a little extra for when they isolate.

Think a good size would be $4 - $4,50

Usually 2 kinds of players when they call 3bs, they call with intention on calling flop, or fold when they miss.
If you have an idea what type he is, easier on the flop.

If the 3b was a little bigger, also a little easier on the flop bet, they usually call with a pair they feel is too weak to 4b shove with, or big cards. C bet on flop feels nice around 1 klick over half pot, and a few more klicks if it's really drawy.

So you 3bet him 2x already and you have been playing well aggro? Snapshove, I had regs snap me with 77 at NL25 in the same situation -.-

dont think theres many As in his range here.

On March 10 2011 16:52 egood wrote: dont think theres many As in his range here.

This is very true - was thinking the same thing when discussing this earlier. I changed my mind - I like shoving. I don't think we get called by worse that often but I do think we are liable to make bigger mistakes if we check and as he can't have that many Ax hands we are way ahead of his range.

this is a preety standard shove ;-0 dunno why you would do anything else

I think not many players called flop with Ax here, so hero can bet 8-10$

I jammed turn. It felt +EV but I also felt like I did it more because checking seemed like it would get me into awkward situations. So I kinda felt like I was copping out by jamming.