4bet fun with KJ

I have an aggressive image (no stats though). Knowing villian is a good player and very capable of 3betting light IP, especially against me, thoughts on the 4bet? His 3bet was really small so I was like 99% sure he was pretty light. Should I have just shoved pre, 4bet quite a bit bigger, or is this a case of fancy play syndrome? I should be getting a ton of credit here I think. I dunno...thoughts?

Submitted by : STR3NGTH

PokerStars Game #39460566847: Tournament #284011081, $50+$5 USD Holdem No Limit - Level IX (200/400) - 2010/02/08 20:52:09 PT [2010/02/08 23:52:09 ET]
Table 284011081 2 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: TRIPSONLY (18080 in chips)
Seat 2: TiLaMiHa (10650 in chips)
Seat 3: hesitepAS:-) (10071 in chips)
Seat 4: bustardo (4814 in chips)
Seat 5: elmwoodiam (15886 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero (20487 in chips)
Seat 7: BigDaddyBMe (6142 in chips)
Seat 8: SheenaRamone (12493 in chips)
Seat 9: TrueAce13 (8367 in chips) is sitting out
TRIPSONLY: posts the ante 50
TiLaMiHa: posts the ante 50
hesitepAS:-): posts the ante 50
bustardo: posts the ante 50
elmwoodiam: posts the ante 50
Hero: posts the ante 50
BigDaddyBMe: posts the ante 50
SheenaRamone: posts the ante 50
TrueAce13: posts the ante 50
hesitepAS:-): posts small blind 200
bustardo: posts big blind 400

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
elmwoodiam: folds
Hero: raises 499 to 899
BigDaddyBMe: folds
SheenaRamone: folds
TrueAce13: folds
TRIPSONLY: raises 1653 to 2552
TiLaMiHa: folds
hesitepAS:-): folds
bustardo: folds
Hero: raises 2647 to 5199
TRIPSONLY: calls 2647

Flop (Pot : $11,448.00)

   
SheenaRamone is connected
Hero: bets 15200
TrueAce13 is connected
TRIPSONLY: calls 12831 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (2369) returned to Hero
TrueAce13 has returned

Turn (Pot : $37,110.00)

   

River (Pot : $37,110.00)

   

Showdown
Hero: shows (high card Ace)
TRIPSONLY: shows (a pair of Aces)
TRIPSONLY collected 37110 from pot

just shove over his raise pre

On February 09 2010 00:01 CrownRoyal wrote: just shove over his raise pre

But if I shove he can play his hand perfect...but I guess it's worth it at these levels to steal what you can, while you can, if your read is good enough and you know he's folding a lot? As opposed to 4betting light and building a pot to probably play a flop OOP. So I'm thinking OOP 4bet shove, IP 4bet like 2.5 - 3x? This of course is only when I'm against another deep and thinking player.

Oh and obv I'm shoving like any flop here with stacks/pot ratio if I am 4betting this light OOP and getting flatted pre. This part is at least right, correct?

lol, fold pre. seriously

On February 09 2010 02:46 STR3NGTH wrote: But if I shove he can play his hand perfect...but I guess it's worth it at these levels to steal what you can, while you can, if your read is good enough and you know he's folding a lot? As opposed to 4betting light and building a pot to probably play a flop OOP. So I'm thinking OOP 4bet shove, IP 4bet like 2.5 - 3x? This of course is only when I'm against another deep and thinking player.

dude wtf are you talking about?

i am so confused and baffled

No dude, you tried to steal with a pretty shitty hand from middle pos, you have an aggressive image and the button re-popped you thinking he was ahead and he was right.

A good player lays down the KJo at that stage - not 4 bet or shove.

So your thinking is because this guys knows your raising raise is BS he must be 3 betting you with BS so your gonna come back over the top with BS???

Very retarded man.

you gave him the option to call
him folding 77 88 AQ would not be perfect

I kinda like your play to be honest
him calling with a5s means that a pretty large percentage of the time you're gonna be taking an additional 2600 from him - he is definitely folding flop without hitting a heart draw or a pair.

I would make the 4bet 6000 tho instead of 5200, this would make your postflop shove even better.

I'd virtually never make this move myself, at least not at that stage, but with your read I don't think it's bad.

i disagree

KJo is behind even the most idiotic 3b range, slightly behind, but behind. if played, we are then playing at least some FE, maybe even mostly FE, and since we don't care about tiny edges, we want a big edge in execution of this play. also, because this is not a cash game, we do not care at all about balance. KJo is our hand, we have no range, and we ascribe 0 range thoughts to our opponent.

since we are playing FE, we shouldn't care if he's 3betting very wide. all we need to know is if he is now FOLDING too often. interestingly, the reason that OP even thought about doing this, that opponent 3bets too often now becomes completely irrelevant.

since OP didn't really know if this guy was folding, i would say he made a clear error in judgment.

I think you should jam it if you think hes playing back it you.

it's behind mostly any 3bet range, but I think villain folds a LOT of flops here. I also think you need to make it slightly larger though, by his call it is essentially clear this 4bet had 0 FE preflop. but I think he's folding all non heart non 5 non A flops and I think he often folds 5 too and if an ace comes he prolly tilt-calls. and I mean, not just talking about this one specific hand - I think villain is going to fold on the flop at least like 70% of the time as I think he only hits something he calls allin with about 30%. (not really calculating this so those numbers are probably slightly off approximates)
add to this that occasionally you will win even when he calls (although then you definitely lose most of the time) and I think this is a +EV play.

maybe jamming is more +ev tho

I can't believe that people are advocating shoving this hand preflop.

So the line is 'I am an aggressive player and people at the table know it. Therefore anyone who 3 bets me must be doing it light and I can just shove with crap and they will fold"????

LOL at busting out of tons of tourneys and peoples notes on you reading 'AGRODONK - shoves KJo Vs a 3 bet - let hang self'.

Playing good poker means that if the table knows you are aggressive and start playing back at you, you are going to need to tighten up. Hopefully then you can use your aggressive image to your advantage and pick an opponent off who plays back at you when you in fact have an actual hand. Not agrodonk 4 bet shove BS like KJo to try and force folds. Poor poor play.

Me personally I wouldn't jam cause im a nit.But If i worked up a really agg image and was sure there was a high % chance that the guy was 3betting me light you could 4bet any two doesn't matter since they should never really be calling.

just fold this hand pf here if u have players like this on ur table. your position is too early and the hand isn't that good.