99-JJ vs no fold equity

a somewhat frequent spot keeps occurring:

blinds are 300/600 live tourney

Me: 9K chips
4 random:~3K chips
Villian:5K chips

Villian raises utg to 2.2K
I'm in the BB with TT

pretty sure villian has a AQ AK KQ kinda hand the majority of the time and is willing to call a shove. (obviously villian can have 77-AA and other hands but just assume high cards for now)

Question: do you guys like calling and seeing a flop and shoving on a safe flop or just shipping it pre? because plenty of times it seems like if u call and shove on a relatively safe flop u can grab the pot/let go of the pot against a scary flop vs shipping it in pre and possibly second guessing yourself when A spikes on river.

me personally i always ship in pre because i figure i am a slight edge against high cards as well as i can second guess myself (AK vs AQ) when i see a Q on a flop.

but i spoke to an old guy who raped the tournament leaderboards at my local card room who was a big time proponent of calling and then shipping. i was just wondering on your opinions/thoughts.

Old people who play live are retarded, seriously. They're bad at poker.

I mean, there can be weird ICM spots that make this a fold, but in a standard structure just ship. Expect to called by a range that you're way ahead of. Calling is retarded. I would recommend reading some tournament strategy.

for less than 10bb i think its a shove.
but if he has been really nitty its a fold obv.
call/fold is awful

I think it is called "stop and go", when you call oop and then ship.
The point is that most flops miss most hands, so if you call and ship he has a hard time calling when he misses.
As far as I know the idea is to ship regardless of what the flop comes. It can probably be marginally better than shipping pre in some rare cases. Never used it myself

Here he cannot fold because of the ridiculous size of his raise, wtf you don't raise almost 4BBs when you have <9BBs left.

So yeah, ship-it is standard and...easy.

Why give him a chance to ship on flop? Force him to flip pre.

On June 25 2009 03:02 pluzich wrote: The point is that most flops miss most hands, so if you call and ship he has a hard time calling when he misses.

a) he's not folding on the flop with anything he raised with
b) why do we only want to play for stacks with hands that hit the flop?
c) why are slowplaying the nuts when he has to call preflop anyways?

On June 25 2009 03:06 Chewits wrote: Why give him a chance to ship on flop? Force him to flip pre.

It's 6-handed and shortstacked, they're not flipping pre. Hero has the nuts.

i mean i don't mind stacking off with TT, but it's not like i'm fist pumping yelling "FUCK YEA, TIME TO COIN FLIP!"

i always ship pre for the mentioned reason in original post. i prob get out played if only one overcard comes and end up second guessing myself.

as for the old guy -_- i trust him he leaves with like 2K everytime i see him at the cash tables (he plays 2/5), and because he's on the leaderboard so often for tournies he gets to play plenty of free rolls and i imagine he's been doing this for a lonnnnng time.

anyways i was just wondering from people who had lots of tournament experience what is favorable. i almost want to say if its still a ways to go to get into the money OR if your in the money, to just go ahead and stack off, while if your close u may want to flip for the original raise and choose to stack the rest of your chips with a favorable flop.

On June 25 2009 03:44 jasper5408 wrote: as for the old guy -_- i trust him he leaves with like 2K everytime i see him at the cash tables (he plays 2/5), and because he's on the leaderboard so often for tournies he gets to play plenty of free rolls and i imagine he's been doing this for a lonnnnng time.

I would wager significant amounts of money that this guy is:

a) unable to beat nl50 online
b) worse than 9/10 of the people with over 1000 posts here

u can do stop n go for sure

call -> shove any flop


even with A high !

On June 25 2009 04:38 Sicks Macks wrote: Show nested quote + On June 25 2009 03:44 jasper5408 wrote: as for the old guy -_- i trust him he leaves with like 2K everytime i see him at the cash tables (he plays 2/5), and because he's on the leaderboard so often for tournies he gets to play plenty of free rolls and i imagine he's been doing this for a lonnnnng time. I would wager significant amounts of money that this guy is: a) unable to beat nl5 online b) worse than 99/100 of the people with over 1000 posts here

...meh i really couldn't give a fuck about how good the old guy actually is...
he just offered a different opinion and i was wondering which way is the way to go

On June 25 2009 03:25 Sicks Macks wrote: Show nested quote + On June 25 2009 03:06 Chewits wrote: Why give him a chance to ship on flop? Force him to flip pre. It's 6-handed and shortstacked, they're not flipping pre. Hero has the nuts.

Well I think its a flip if he has 2 over cards. He has the edge with TT, but it is not the nutz. At least by shipping pre you are getting your money in good, and not calling/shipping on a flop that you hate.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 100% 0% 0% 1403265084 10311462.00 { TT }
Hand 1: 0% 0% 0% 846627096 10311462.00 { Some shit }


Looks like the nuts to me

On June 26 2009 14:24 Sicks Macks wrote: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 100% 0% 0% 1403265084 10311462.00 { TT } Hand 1: 0% 0% 0% 846627096 10311462.00 { Some shit } Looks like the nuts to me

lol this is correct and hilarious

lol... ez ship I think

i ship pre mostly everytime