My really weird line - am I a complete donk?

So I thought I would post this cos it was a weird hand to play and looking at it, it looks like a really weird way to play it. However I wanted to put my thought processes down to see if I am completely way off here or whether my thoughts are correct and it is an acceptable way to play this - have a feeling I might get flamed here but its the only way to learn!!

Submitted by : 4kinggenius

PokerStars Game #29427324350: Holdem No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2009/06/16 14:02:28 WET [2009/06/16 9:02:28 ET]
Table Amor II 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: boomerzz ($26.40 in chips)
Seat 2: terry15 ($30.80 in chips)
Seat 3: hampex ($8.25 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero ($36.15 in chips)
Seat 5: leosaneng ($34.60 in chips)
hampex: posts small blind $0.10
Hero: posts big blind $0.25

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
leosaneng: folds
boomerzz: folds
terry15: raises $0.50 to $0.75
hampex: calls $0.65
Hero: raises $1.75 to $2.50
terry15: calls $1.75
hampex: calls $1.75

Flop (Pot : $7.50)

   
hampex: checks
Hero: checks
Satvaldiev has returned
terry15: bets $4
hampex: folds
Hero: raises $6.25 to $10.25
terry15: calls $6.25

Turn (Pot : $28.00)

   
Hero: checks
terry15: bets $18.05 and is all-in
Hero: calls $18.05

I like the c/r on the flop because it is multi way and you have said yourself that there is players in the pot that are very aggressive post flop. Because it is a 3bet flop multi way, c/r is not bad, as alot of people may put you on AK type hands, and may be more inclined to fold their PP to your lead bet. But since you check, they may put you on PPs now. You are miles ahead of a PP and even if they hit their PP on turn/river you are still ahead here. check/raising here is good. But you shouldn't check the turn now! The Q card is a problematic/good card here for you: If villain is holding AJ/AT he is quite likely to want to call down your bet in hope to hit the gutshot. So betting is waay better as you are gonna get called by a ton of hands here, AK,AQ,AJ,AT,KQ etc. You get more value leading the turn than checking. This hand you get lucky, as he shoves it all in. Possible he has hit 2 pair. TJ would be a cooler, but nothing you can really do.

But bet turn here if you check raising the flop.

bigger preflop, there is a caller in the middle.

postflop is okay since you got the stacks in with it, dont think i would take this line much myself though.I wud rather just play it bet bet bet since its easy enough to get it.

I think you are overthinking situations and giving them really odd ranges. you think the range for a 25/22 calling that small 3bet is AJ+ TT+ and doesnt include AA either is veeeeeeery off. his range is way wider than that.

people often overvalue hands in 3bet pots at nl25, especially blind vs button. which is great since you can stack em easy if you hit something.

I would not be suprised to see some odd hands here the way this was played.

cliffnotes: 3bet bigger preflop, bet flop, bet turn, shove river.

I agree with critterer you should 3bet bigger PF. Especially if you would 3bet bigger with your non-nut hands (resteals). My standard OOP 100BB stacks would be $3.25 + you have the guy in the middle so if it was a pure squeeze you could make it even bigger. As you have 2nd nuts PF then no harm making it a bit smaller - maybe $3 as no-one will notice you flexing bet size.

I also think your ranges are well off. The button is aggro and has position - he will call your small 3bet with a wide range - especially if the guy in the sb is going to call most times (and by him calling he is pricing sb in to a call with an even wider range). SB can have any PP, SC's, most Axs, ATo+, any broadways - and that's assumng he is not a complete donk and the button can have similar but a bit narrower maybe.

The flop play I think is fine given reads. By checking flop you are almost ensuring and extra bet. But think about the range you gave them for calling PF. If that was accurate are they going to fold to a flop cbet? Probably not. So if that is the range you put them on then bet, bet shove would work too. I guess your line just looks a bit fishy and induces more. I think I quite like for an aggro button like this.

Edit: forgot to comment on turn. You have to bet here imo. Too many draws picked up a ton of outs.

And yes mate - you are a donk.

Check raising the flop makes no sense to me. If he has an ace you should probably CB the flop instead. If he doesn't have an ace he's folding to your flop raise. So just CB it if you think he has top pair, if you think he completely missed c/c 3 streets. Pot is big already if he checks behind to you on turn you can just vbet the river for a good amoutn and profit.

and yeah 3 bet preflop bigger because you're oop.

On June 17 2009 06:00 Chewits wrote: I like the c/r on the flop because it is multi way and you have said yourself that there is players in the pot that are very aggressive post flop. .

that's why calling is probably better. There are no draws so you want everyone in the hand becuase you have the nuts and you raising is just folding players out. Calling multiway can also induce raises from agressive players.

I don't mind it but I'm with the bigger preflop crowd...I'd prolly just shove the turn but its whatever you got the money in

c/r flop is the worse of all possible actions there, mainly because your hand looks like at least AK and also for balancing considerations you are very likely to bet this flop when you have air. Not only that but what is it exactly you expect to happen when you c/r ? You will only get some small % of bluffs there since its MW and whatever else they will be betting you would have gotten a call or more by anyway if you bet urself.

Your play was very good onlly thing is on turn you should shove because you dont want him to check behind. Besides that all payed very well.

On June 17 2009 10:10 Fox wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2009 06:00 Chewits wrote: I like the c/r on the flop because it is multi way and you have said yourself that there is players in the pot that are very aggressive post flop. . that's why calling is probably better. There are no draws so you want everyone in the hand becuase you have the nuts and you raising is just folding players out. Calling multiway can also induce raises from agressive players.

Valid point. All though in my experience I find a ton of people will call c/r a ton. But you do talk sense here.

the cr is fine because you could just jam river if he checks it back

Well you managed to get all the money in with what is most likely the best hand so that's good. I would've probably led the turn though with maybe a 2/3 pot size bet but as it happened he did the work for you.

On June 17 2009 11:32 EvilSky wrote: c/r flop is the worse of all possible actions there, mainly because your hand looks like at least AK and also for balancing considerations you are very likely to bet this flop when you have air. Not only that but what is it exactly you expect to happen when you c/r ? You will only get some small % of bluffs there since its MW and whatever else they will be betting you would have gotten a call or more by anyway if you bet urself.

^first read that, i dunno why he posts such good advice but i'm thankful

What a set mining God I am plus a great flop for A high hands to have hit. Button is very aggro so as soon as the sb checks then I am checking to induce a bet from the button which is surely coming and then C/R to 2.5x bet to induce shove from AK (unlikely now) AQ/AJ.

so exactly one hand will shove on your check raise, and the rest will just call your checkraise? will button cbet multi pot with pure air? will he think you are just checkraise/squeezing with just air?

if you bet you can have:
a) a pair and a draw
b) the nuts
c) top pair
d) all the above

when u check raise u can have
a) top 2 pair
b) a set
c) u squeezed pf, anything!
d) a & b

how about betting pot? AK will:
a) fold
b) raise
c) call

AQ AJ will:
a) fold
b) raise
c) happily call if not raise

Bluffs will:
a) fold
b) raise
c) call


seems to me, betting is the way to go as you hide the strength of your hand like the hidden flavors of Oolong # 18 which can be purchased here:
http://www.adagio.com/oolong/jade_ool...?SID=4a622e6a0a330957adec0e8818fd6413

vs check raising and announcing you have a monster hand.
once you bet a pot size on flop, there's so few monies left any bet combo on turn/river will get the monies in

On June 17 2009 19:54 SpeedyJack wrote: the cr is fine because you could just jam river if he checks it back

edit: im talking about the turn, i bet the flop

OK - many thanks

I agree with betting bigger on squeeze - I think i normally do when i dont have such strong hole cards, so useful note.

Also understand betting the flop - thanks for the detailed explanation Jasper.

I have put the rest of the hand below - which shows why i was very confused about the hand as a whole, am not reading enything into this but was interested in the play till this point
+ Show Spoiler +

3-bet bigger preflop

a check/raise after being the pfr is always the nuts against people I play against. I'm not sure you're opponents know this, but it seems to have worked out anyway. I prefer just doing a standard c-bet, then maybe a c/r on the turn but he's probably going broke with any ace anyway

i think u played it fine whatever...don't overthink...

you are a complete donk and werid

whenever somone raises to .75 pre at nl25, always 3bet to at least $3 so they can't setmine with random "better than normal" odds they would have gotten if you 3bet to like 2.25 or something as opposed to if they raised to $1 first. I think 3.50 is a pretty fine 3bet with the caller in front. Then on flop this is definitely a perfect place to cbet, then just get it in anyway possible.

basically, 3bet bigger to 3.50ish. cbet/get it in.