NL100 Ugh turn, but pot committed (?)

Sorry no actual hand history, been playing on another person's PC but this hand has bothered me for 2 days.

UTG (standard TAG maybe on nitty side) opened to 4, CO called, I called with KsTs in BB

Flop KdTh8d, standard tagnit cbet 8, CO folded, I mulled about the c/r amount and decided I wanted to represent a draw (not an excellent made hand) and made a big plz-fold checkraise to 40, planning to get it in on the turn no matter what. He thought long (didn't request time) but eventually called. At this point I expected him to shove his draws + 2 pair +, prolly combo draws on this board. But since he flatted I put him squarely on AK, probably AA as well (probably hoping to call all-in blank turn). Maybe KQ.

Alas for me turn was Ac, but since pot was 84 and I had 56 remaining I stuck it in. Sure enough he showed AK and I failed to resuck.

Now the question is, in situations like this when I was fairly sure about my read, was I exactly pot-committed? If no then what's the stack to pot ratio that I could profitably stick it in?

When you put your opponent on a range when you show a lot of strength, and the turn brings the worst possible card in the deck which hits his range really hard you can still check/fold for sure.

I'd fold preflop though. A straightforward (I hate the word nit unless it's someone who plays like 12/10) player opens from UTG, KTs doesn't do that well against his range.

You can easily find out if u are pot commited by giving them a range and calculating your equity against that, stack to pot ratio is irrelevant, if you are getting 10:1 against a range that has you drawing dead you still fold.

I think an even easier way to analyze this is, you know how you were fuckin around trying to level him 8 ways from sunday with your monster hand? Well he's probably doing the same shit to you, and his range is a lot better than KT. UTG raiser is not afraid of a KT8 flop when he has AK. The c/r is good b/c you do beat him 90% of the time on this flop, but you really just got stuck. I think you should c/r smaller for value giving yourself some room to abandon on turns like this if you can find the fold button.

On June 17 2009 22:12 NewbSaibot wrote: I think an even easier way to analyze this is, you know how you were fuckin around trying to level him 8 ways from sunday with your monster hand? Well he's probably doing the same shit to you, and his range is a lot better than KT. UTG raiser is not afraid of a KT8 flop when he has AK. The c/r is good b/c you do beat him 90% of the time on this flop, but you really just got stuck. I think you should c/r smaller for value giving yourself some room to abandon on turns like this if you can find the fold button.

Wait, what? The OP successfully got the villain to stick a ton of his stack in way behind, why check raise smaller when you're getting most of it in WAAAAYYY ahead? This means hes never folding and if you c/raise small villain might get away from some turns.

On June 17 2009 22:12 NewbSaibot wrote: I think an even easier way to analyze this is, you know how you were fuckin around trying to level him 8 ways from sunday with your monster hand? Well he's probably doing the same shit to you, and his range is a lot better than KT. UTG raiser is not afraid of a KT8 flop when he has AK. The c/r is good b/c you do beat him 90% of the time on this flop, but you really just got stuck. I think you should c/r smaller for value giving yourself some room to abandon on turns like this if you can find the fold button.

I think the ch/r sizing is perfect and leaves a very easy shove on the turn that the villain probably cant resist calling. I mean his read is that he should abandon turnshove if 4 (or rather 3 if villain very often has an A) specific cards comes, thats nothing. Pretty retarded to plan sizing for a turn fold if youre afraid of 3 outs...

edit: meep i write slow, DONKEYLUVIN made my point.

I just mean a more standard raise amount, not 5x. Unless hero had good reason to feel he could get that kind of value here against this villain every time, I think expecting people to call c/r's of this magnitude every time to be a bit unrealistic. I think overall raising this much is just losing value by making people fold too much, but i ono.

On June 17 2009 23:54 NewbSaibot wrote: I just mean a more standard raise amount, not 5x. Unless hero had good reason to feel he could get that kind of value here against this villain every time, I think expecting people to call c/r's of this magnitude every time to be a bit unrealistic. I think overall raising this much is just losing value by making people fold too much, but i ono.

agree with this. it's not that you're worried about getting 3 outered, it's that you don't want to make it obvious to villain that he's beat. if you raise to like 24-28 or w/e, you're still going to be effectively putting him to a decision for his stack on most turns anyway.

i dont think a lot about balancing ranges and stuff but, making it a more normal-sized raise has to be better as far as balancing your bluffs/draws/monsters especially if he's a reg.

On June 18 2009 02:57 bigredhoss wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2009 23:54 NewbSaibot wrote: I just mean a more standard raise amount, not 5x. Unless hero had good reason to feel he could get that kind of value here against this villain every time, I think expecting people to call c/r's of this magnitude every time to be a bit unrealistic. I think overall raising this much is just losing value by making people fold too much, but i ono. agree with this. it's not that you're worried about getting 3 outered, it's that you don't want to make it obvious to villain that he's beat. if you raise to like 24-28 or w/e, you're still going to be effectively putting him to a decision for his stack on most turns anyway. i dont think a lot about balancing ranges and stuff but, making it a more normal-sized raise has to be better as far as balancing your bluffs/draws/monsters especially if he's a reg.

Normally I'd agree, but in this situation it appears T8suited has a good read on the opponent's range, and decided to raise it larger (knowing its unlikely for villain to fold anything in his range that hits this board) and possibly make it look more like a draw. Obviously its not the standard line to raise this large, but I think T8 made a good situational play here, as it ENSURES villain will stack off on all turns.

On June 15 2009 10:43 T8Suited wrote:I wanted to represent a draw (not an excellent made hand) and made a big plz-fold checkraise to 40

wtf this tilts me so much, do people still think like this? assuming there's no unique history and you don't have some crazy image, raising to 40 does not look like "plz-fold" it looks like "i have a mother fucking monster, let's get the monies in NOW". you are representing something that either has AK crushed or flipping most of the time.

i mean, why do you think villain would expect you to play a draw like this but NOT a made hand??

On June 18 2009 03:08 DONKEYLUVIN wrote: Obviously its not the standard line to raise this large, but I think T8 made a good situational play here, as it ENSURES villain will stack off on all turns.

but it doesn't ENSURE that villain will see a turn. we dont generally expect a preflop raiser to fold AA/AK here, but nobody generally expects to get raised to $40 here either, so it's somewhat of an odd situation, and if hero is playing tight and not getting out of line and utg is aware of this and happens to be a nit himself, it's not inconceivable for him to level himself into folding. probably only a small portion of the time if ever, but it seems like enough of a drawback to just raise a normal amount.

besides, if he was that confident in his read turn should be a trivial c-fold.

I'm with Bigredhoss here unless there is some prior history that makes op think villain will perceive a bigger bet as bluffy.

I'm with twisted and evilsky here. Pot to stack ration is only relevant as it relates to your equity against villain's range.

On June 18 2009 10:30 phexac wrote: I'm with twisted and evilsky here. Pot to stack ration is only relevant as it relates to your equity against villain's range.

i dont think anyone was disagreeing with twisted/evilsky -_-

On June 18 2009 18:11 bigredhoss wrote: Show nested quote + On June 18 2009 10:30 phexac wrote: I'm with twisted and evilsky here. Pot to stack ration is only relevant as it relates to your equity against villain's range. i dont think anyone was disagreeing with twisted/evilsky -_-

I'm not saying anyone was...