3bet QQ from bb, ragged flop deep.

villain is 44/16 passive and I was playing 21/19/3, not getting out of line.

Wich is the best way to play this ? Can I just fold turn ?

Submitted by : the cleaner

PokerStars Game #22637236185: Holdem No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/12/05 4:41:49 ET
Table Arpola III 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Stacy155 ($50 in chips)
Seat 2: Mu3EP ($50 in chips)
Seat 3: T.T.Ray ($109.60 in chips)
Seat 4: Romantic1987 ($61.50 in chips)
Seat 5: the clêaner ($95.45 in chips)
Seat 6: Andre1337 ($69.30 in chips)
Romantic1987: posts small blind $0.25
the clêaner : posts big blind $0.50

Holecards
Dealt to the clêaner
Andre1337: folds
Stacy155: folds
Mu3EP: folds
T.T.Ray: raises $1 to $1.50
Romantic1987: folds
the clêaner : raises $5.50 to $7
T.T.Ray: calls $5.50

Flop (Pot : $14.25)

   
the clêaner : bets $9
T.T.Ray: raises $9 to $18
the clêaner : calls $9

Turn (Pot : $50.25)

   
the clêaner : checks
T.T.Ray: bets $35.50

Tough spot, but fold in most cases.

This is totally read dependent; is your sample size really good? What is his 3bet range and 3bet calling range? If his 3bet range is really small, we can assume his 4bet range is pretty much non-existent and he flats KK-AA pre. If his 3bet calling range is huge, he might have stuff as bad as 8x and be freaking out that he has top pair in a pot with so much money invested.

How long did his turn decision take? If he acted in a fairly short amount of time, his ease of the decision probably indicates he hit a set. Had he used half his timebank on the turn, I very well may consider shoving.

You definitely need good reads for this spot if you want to continue because his line indicates ridiculous strength. I'd snap fold this turn pretty much vs anyone somewhat competent, but fishy players can of course show up with a lot of crap, so it's important to get every possible read in this scenario.

lol a passive donk minraises nondrawy board -> easy fold :D
You are also oop and 2 buy-ins deep, no way to pay him off with just pair.
Your cbet is small though, bet 12 and then... fold to the minraise lol

Sample size is pretty good, like 400 hands. I haven't seen him 3bet alot, and I haven't seen him cold calling to many 3bets either, and I think he rarely 4bets, so he should actually have a pretty tight range here. On the flop I put him on an overpair, since I think he is the type of player that would only call with a set here to induce more bets from me. He bet turn pretty fast .

My read was like:
* didn't think he had a set
* looks like an overpair
* shouldn't he have 4bet with AA/KK preflop being that deep ?
* asg%^&*dfg

I dunno, unless he doesn't really view $35.50 as a significant amount of money, if he bets that much fast, I'm going to assume he's either sick tilting because of the money in the pot or really really confident.

I'd give him credit for a set and fold.

EDIT: I dunno, people with the nuts don't usually bet that much on the turn though. It's a little suspicious that he minraises you then suddenly goes out and fires 35 dollars. Lots of people like betting half pot or something because its more likely to get called and still easy to get in on the river.

Ahhh no clue, I'm just leveling myself here. You know him better than I do, and I'd just base the decision on how I felt about it all, but it really does look like a set.

Why can't he have JJ/TT here

Ya the more I think about it the more I wanna shove. The min is him trying to see if JJ is good without committing to much if you reraise there he mucks but instead you call he thinks you have ak now you shove turn is head is all fucked up and you just soul owned your opponent ......great success

IMO JJ flat calls you on the flop quite often here, I'd fold.

On December 05 2008 11:54 rgfdxm wrote: IMO JJ flat calls you on the flop quite often here, I'd fold.

Agree with this TT/JJ usualy flat call.

I'm getting this in on the flop all day, he plays 46% of hands, im never folding QQ to this player, ever

as played I prob shove turn

I think getting it in on the flop is by far most +EV since guys like this are unable to fold any hand they raise for value with they just put you on AK and stack off with 8x or 99

But do they really minraise with a 9x type hand? I dunno how crazy they are being 200bbs deep.

they have no idea how to play, they are here to gamble, it's kind of silly to try and assign a player like this a range - all you can really do is play the absolute strength of your hand, and htis is a super premium flop for QQ

On December 05 2008 12:53 TalentedTom wrote: they have no idea how to play, they are here to gamble,it's kind of silly to try and assign a player like this a range - all you can really do is play the absolute strength of your hand, and htis is a super premium flop for QQ

Yea you are right, this guy would probably play tp/TT/JJ the same thinking that its the nuts I think I got kind of result oriented, but I think by getting it in we will win more then we will loose in the long run against this type of player.


Thanks for replies


Submitted by : the cleaner

POKERSTARS GAME #22637236185: HOLDEM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/12/05 4:41:49 ET
Table Arpola III 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Stacy155 ($50 in chips)
Seat 2: Mu3EP ($50 in chips)
Seat 3: T.T.Ray ($109.60 in chips)
Seat 4: Romantic1987 ($61.50 in chips)
Seat 5: the clêaner ($95.45 in chips)
Seat 6: Andre1337 ($69.30 in chips)
Romantic1987: posts small blind $0.25
the clêaner : posts big blind $0.50

Holecards(Odds)
Dealt to the clêaner
Andre1337: folds
Stacy155: folds
Mu3EP: folds
T.T.Ray: raises $1 to $1.50
Romantic1987: folds
the clêaner : raises $5.50 to $7
T.T.Ray: calls $5.50

Flop(Odds) (Pot : $14.25)

   
the clêaner : bets $9
T.T.Ray: raises $9 to $18
the clêaner : calls $9

Turn(Odds) (Pot : $50.25)

   
the clêaner : checks
T.T.Ray: bets $35.50
the clêaner : raises $34.95 to $70.45 and is all-in
T.T.Ray: calls $34.95

River (Pot : $191.15)

   

Showdown
the clêaner : shows (a pair of Queens)
T.T.Ray: shows (a pair of Kings)
T.T.Ray collected $188.15 from pot

Summary
Total pot $191.15 | Rake $3
Board  
Seat 1: Stacy155 folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 2: Mu3EP folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 3: T.T.Ray (button) showed and won ($188.15) with a pair of Kings
Seat 4: Romantic1987 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: the clêaner (big blind) showed and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 6: Andre1337 folded before Flop (didnt bet)

I don't agree with Tom, these players actually play a lot of hand PREFLOP and show a high vpip but they're very passive POSTFLOP which is kinda confusing in the first place. You might think they are loose fishes but in fact they just like to take a pot and show no agression if they don't hit the board, stats are usually something like 45/15/1. And it seems that this guy is that kind of fish, and i don't like to give them action postflop except with good hands, especially 2 bis deep.

There are a lot of these suckers at micro and this is very easily exploitable (isolate, 3bet light, cbet a lot, punish them in position as much as possible for having such an high vpip), but when they give you action postflop they DO have a hand.

I'm not folding this against 44/16 fish