[NL 25] I go broke here always right?

Is flatting pf bad? Do I ever not go all in here?

Submitted by : Sicks Macks

Full Tilt Poker Game #7953188051: Table Transom (6 max) - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:38:30 ET - 2008/09/05
Seat 1: Hero ($25.55)
Seat 2: notafraid2 fold ($21.90)
Seat 3: eeaweeaw ($3.90)
Seat 4: AndyJohnsonFTW ($10)
Seat 5: Tonyair ($3.85)
Seat 6: VERYBLUNT ($5)
eeaweeaw posts the small blind of $0.05
AndyJohnsonFTW posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #2

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
Tonyair raises to $0.35
Hero raises to $1.20
notafraid2 fold raises to $5.70
Tonyair has been disconnected
Tonyair has reconnected
eeaweeaw folds
Hero has been disconnected
AndyJohnsonFTW folds
Tonyair calls $3.50, and is all in
Hero has reconnected
Hero has 15 seconds left to act
Hero calls $4.50

Flop (Pot : $15.40)

   

Depends a lot on the opponent imo. Against a lot of NL10 players I would instafold to the cold 4bet 200bb's deep, since 4bets are NOT common in my experience. Obv if the guy is a fish and especially an aggrofish I would pretty happily get it in here, but players at NL10 vary a lot so reads are very important.

you got cold 4 bet and the sidepot is pretty dry, and you are 200bb deep. if you don't fold to the cold 4bet you are committing to going all in... you might flat if you want to trap and you know you have the nuts in AK and or you want to balance your ranges. seems like you didn't have much of a plan for the hand and just flatted cause you were getting scared but you didn't want to fold AK pf. this kind of thinking will just get you leaking dead money all over the table. so make your battle plan preflop based on what you have observed this player do in the past.
I really think this is going to be a fold preflop most of the time. if he might be cold 4bet bluffing here then flatting and acting weak postflop is the best line.

This is the flop you called preflop to hit. You can justify a fold here vs certain opponents. What you can't justify is calling a 3bet pf against those same opponents. Either TPTK is good so you call to hit it or it's not so you fold pf.

yea u are playing scared of money and without a plan, gl 2 u sir

i just noticed you and the 4bettor both have 200BB + too.. that kind of forces you to be more cautious doesnt it?

the other strong consideration i would have is.. i mean, do we really need to get involved where we're getting even money at nl10? i think not.


554,786,496 games 0.005 secs 110,957,299,200 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.785% 23.66% 16.13% 131241660 89482674.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 60.215% 44.09% 16.13% 244579488 89482674.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

i probably stated that really poorly. but i think you know what i mean. >.< *hide*

rockman, the problem here is that putting him on a range of JJ+ AK is read-dependent. Most nitty/passive NL10 players won't 4bet JJ ever and many probably wouldn't cold 4bet even QQ 200bb's deep. It's against such a player that we're saying you should fold because you're simply crushed by his range. If you call preflop that means you've decided already that he is not this type of player and therefore this is the perfect flop to continue.

I agree with Silver that if he's overaggro then acting weak once you've hit this flop is probably best.

I guess I should mention I've been pretty aggro pf... though this is the first time anyone has 4bet. I've never seen anyone 4bet that large at nl10 (just realized I put the wrong stakes on the title, my bad) with AA. My read (not on the player, but on the stakes) is that this is 99-QQ or AK, or some other hand that gets tougher to play postflop. In fact I don't think I've ever seen AA not minraised (or close to it) at these stakes, and I held one of the Kings from KK. I thought I was getting close to direct odds to draw to an A or K on the flop (30ish% right?). The plan was to get it in on a flop like this. Which I did, shortstack showed KQ, bigstack showed AA.

I don't particularly mind the way I played postflop (shoved psb), considering he's stationy (my 200+bbs at the time used to be his from calling me down), but my main question is, do I have odds against his range, should I shove pre, and do other nl10 players agree with my discounting AA?

i retract all statements made about said hand!

i dont want to offend people with my stupidity

Is that directed at me? If so I certainly wasn't offended and I didn't mean to come off as though I'm attacking you. What you said isn't exactly in disagreement with what I was saying, since your range is for a TAGish player and you're right that we're in bad shape against one.

shove preflop is a lot better than calling so you don't have to worry about missed flops.

no, not really. i dont feel attacked in any way, either. but its like im the younger stupid brother who says something everyone already knew and didnt have to say. >.<

oh wait you're deep. i would just fold here since you're oop...and i don't like shoving AK 200bb deep

So is the consensus really fold AK oop whenever deep to a 4bet? I'm not saying I disagree with you guys. We're too deep to shove and feel good about it. Too shallow to 5-bet semibluff, and flatting AK oop hurts (though in this situation with dead money I don't think it's as bad). Everybody's argument makes sense. I guess the answer is 4-betting light is the new way to make money!

4-betting light is the way to make money against you, but you're not as dumb as all the donks at NL10 (hopefully ). When people have ridiculously tight 4-bet ranges, you should loosen your 3-betting range. In practice I didn't actually do this too much until higher stakes because even though you won't get 4-bet much, you'll get your 3-bets called a lot so I would do them mostly for value. If someone is folding to all your 3-bets, then by all means 3-bet that guy light but don't start doing it to random unknowns at NL10.

Also "5-bet semi-bluff" is silly, and the fact that this was a cold 4-bet matters too - it makes his line a lot stronger. If you've been loose/aggro and think people are getting fed up with your shenanigans, expect them to mostly play back sometime when you're raising them, not jump randomly into someone else's pot.

If you flat his 4bet while you're scared of it and then you end up hitting the flop, what was the point in going into the pot in the first place?

On September 05 2008 23:32 vlseph wrote: If you flat his 4bet while you're scared of it and then you end up hitting the flop, what was the point in going into the pot in the first place?

I guess I shouldn't have continued the HH into the flop, I was asking if flatting is better than folding is better than shoving given action/dead money

On September 06 2008 10:59 Sicks Macks wrote: Show nested quote + On September 05 2008 23:32 vlseph wrote: If you flat his 4bet while you're scared of it and then you end up hitting the flop, what was the point in going into the pot in the first place? I guess I shouldn't have continued the HH into the flop, I was asking if flatting is better than folding is better than shoving given action/dead money

What he means is that you ahve to make your decision preflop. If you call his 4bet, you are stacking off on an A/K high board. If you're not, then the preflop call is bad because you can't call for quad value.

You have to make your decision preflop.

Yeah, I agree flop is not questionable, the only option is to shove there.

PF - It depends ALOT on the opponent. You might snapfold vs some, snapshove vs others.

You tarped him