a (stupid?) question

basically, nl50 fr is like attack of the weaktights

this situation seems to come up often enough where a perfect scare card hits the river (or the turn, i guess)

is it supposed to be my general policy to very much back off from a weaktight when flush/straight/top-pair-becomes-trips type cards come off the deck?

basically, am i being too passive missing a vbet in this situation?

i said to myself ill check call and that way i will possibly save money when im beat if he doesnt know how to shove and ill give myself better odds (?)

is my reasoning okay?

T.T

(edit: i know this is pot limit. pretend its no limit :O )

edit again: i dont even really completely understand the benefit of checking with full intention of calling off the rest of his chips, as opposed to shoving, but i think as ive read in other posts and been taught, there is a difference here?
Submitted by : rockman255

PokerStars Game #19435695803: Hold'em Pot Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/08/07 - 15:40:29 (ET)
Table 'Eumelos IV' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: sputnik6 ($26.60 in chips)
Seat 2: Starbuck HD ($76.15 in chips)
Seat 3: 1Jerinho1 ($38.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero ($50 in chips)
Seat 5: Jaden4200 ($39.60 in chips)
Seat 6: JaySreraise ($49.75 in chips)
Seat 8: kiwi25 ($12.75 in chips)
Seat 9: milton37 ($30 in chips)
1Jerinho1: posts small blind $0.25
Hero : posts big blind $0.50
Jaden4200: posts small blind $0.25
Janneret: sits out
milton37: posts big blind $0.50

Holecards(Odds)
Dealt to Hero
Jaden4200: calls $0.50
JaySreraise: calls $0.50
kiwi25: folds
milton37: checks
sputnik6: calls $0.50
Starbuck HD: folds
1Jerinho1: folds
Hero : raises $2.50 to $3
Jaden4200: calls $2.50
JaySreraise: folds
milton37: folds
sputnik6: folds

Flop(Odds) (Pot : $7.75)

   
Hero : bets $6
Jaden4200: calls $6

Turn(Odds) (Pot : $19.75)

   
Hero : bets $13
Jaden4200: calls $13

River (Pot : $45.75)

   
Hero : checks
Jaden4200: checks

Showdown
Hero : shows (a pair of Kings)
Jaden4200: shows (a pair of Eights)
Hero collected $43.75 from pot

Summary
Total pot $46 | Rake $2.25
Board  
Seat 1: sputnik6 folded before Flop
Seat 2: Starbuck HD (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: 1Jerinho1 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Hero (big blind) showed and won ($43.75) with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: Jaden4200 showed and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 6: JaySreraise folded before Flop
Seat 8: kiwi25 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: milton37 folded before Flop

i am thinking about it :O

and its kind of like.. my position on the river is like..

check:

if he has me crushed he shoves every time(flush straight 100%, maybe set 2p 80% shove)

if he is beat he shoves some of the time repping the flush, maybe like 25-50% depending on his style

otherwise checks and i show down the pot and win

bet:

if he has tp call 75%, 2p he calls 90%, set he calls 95%, flush or str call 100%

if he has 2nd pair or worse hes folding 90%

idk overall i guess it makes sense and it would appear the main reason for calling after the check is that i must bluff catch there?

If your not folding then jam yourself

well its unlikely that he'll turn a made hand into a bluff on this board and he can't really have any missed draws except for JQ since every other one got there so if you're not folding you should be shoving yourself instead of c/c since you'll be missing value from his worse hands and getting valuetowned by better

if he is weak tight he will almost never bluff the river, so you can discount that.

if you dont know whether to check or bet the river you should ask yourself:

if i check and my opponent bets, do i fold or call?

if the answer is "i call" you should rather bet yourself so you don't miss value in this spot. If you do not intend folding and but only expect to get value from your opponent if he bets, you should check to induce a bluff, but like i already said, they are virtually never bluffbet this river.

against someone who bets into you with marginal hands I like this check but against this kind of player you have to bet. i disagree that you always have to jam yourself if your not folding because the chances of him having 2-pair are slim (calling down 3 streets on this board) so your not folding out better hands very often however in this situation a shove is better to catch hands to extract value from like 88, A9, A10, sometimes JJ or QQ. this outweighs the chance of him bluffing

thanks RR; perhaps this is case in point:

Submitted by : rockman255

PokerStars Game #19438315570: Hold'em Pot Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/08/07 - 17:22:52 (ET)
Table 'Lucretia IV' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: rockman255 ($82.65 in chips)
Seat 5: Hörnchen82 ($31.65 in chips)
Seat 6: KayO82 ($22.75 in chips)
Seat 7: JohnnyOutlaw ($60 in chips)
Seat 8: DePokerSmurf ($43.20 in chips)
Seat 9: jwo316 ($51.90 in chips)
DePokerSmurf: posts small blind $0.25
jwo316: posts big blind $0.50
5RayFinkle5: sits out

Holecards(Odds)
Dealt to rockman255
rockman255 : calls $0.50
Hörnchen82: calls $0.50
KayO82: raises $1 to $1.50
JohnnyOutlaw: folds
DePokerSmurf: calls $1.25
jwo316: folds
rockman255 : calls $1
Hörnchen82: calls $1

Flop(Odds) (Pot : $6.50)

   
cherosatsuma is connected
DePokerSmurf: checks
rockman255 : bets $4
Hörnchen82: calls $4
KayO82: folds
DePokerSmurf: folds

Turn(Odds) (Pot : $14.50)

   
rockman255 : bets $10
Hörnchen82: calls $10

River (Pot : $34.50)

   
rockman255 : bets $32.85
Hörnchen82: calls $16.15 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($16.70) returned to rockman255

Showdown
rockman255 : shows (three of a kind, Fives)
Hörnchen82: mucks hand
rockman255 collected $63.80 from pot

Summary
Total pot $66.80 | Rake $3
Board  
Seat 1: rockman255 showed and won ($63.80) with three of a kind, Fives
Seat 5: Hörnchen82 mucked
Seat 6: KayO82 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: JohnnyOutlaw (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: DePokerSmurf (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: jwo316 (big blind) folded before Flop

that 55 hand is played well, but you could have bet the turn harder imo.

Looks fine and agree with previous posts, can get different in lower limits where checking to induce can be best but at lower than I think 100NL it's just best to valuebet yourself because, especially the fish, are rarely going to bluff and mostly are weak calling stations. Oooh and... *pssst* don't limp... especially not short-handed

limping a low pocket pair in ep is fine

didnt see that this hand was limped. Personally I never limp and i think it's a weak play, but if your opponents don't punish you for it you can do it.
I like to say that it's only a mistake if your opponent has the skills to abuse it.

On August 07 2008 15:09 Royal_Rumble wrote: didnt see that this hand was limped. Personally I never limp and i think it's a weak play, but if your opponents don't punish you for it you can do it. I like to say that it's only a mistake if your opponent has the skills to abuse it.

Kind of agree but even then I think limping can be +EV that in almost any occassion just open raising (in this case) or isolating a limper is way more profitable then open limping or limping behind. Basically the only time I limp is if I'm like LP with hands like this and 2-3 limpers are already in.

On August 07 2008 13:07 traxamillion wrote: If your not folding then jam yourself

this is terrible thinking. jamming gets no value from bluffs

i raise more preflop to like 10xBB

really important to make it expensive for people to setmine and such. yes you take down a small pot preflop more often, but who cares? nobody is giving you much money postflop anyway. and the idiots who DO give you action for a huge raise preflop are likely to make 1 postflop spew that will subsequently be much larger because you'll have bloated the pot.

anyway this hand as played looks good except the preflop raise

possibly bet a few more $ on turn too

does it matter how hard I bet on the turn if the stacks are such that its all going in anyways?

Good question to ask Rockman as I often have thought about this on the river and whether a VBet, or c/c is the best play. Most of the time to me it depends on the type of player I'm up against. If its a fish type player I would usually always make a vbet and they call with 10-x because they usually think why would he bet AA,KK,QQ in this spot when the flush hits, he probably has to bet to win.

But against some aggro players/non nit regs I would probably check/call in this spot because most smart players will turn most non-top pair hands/missed draws and even sometimes top pair hands into a bluff if they think you have an overpair. If it was me in the first hand I would always shove the river with atc against a nit reg like you.

I usually always play it safe on river cards like that one though and either check/call or check/fold depending on the player/read. I would think in the long run you'll probably be losing more money betting and then calling/folding to a shove from the other player then you would c/c or showing the hand down.


2nd hand is played really well also. I always assume anyone with a 30 dollar stack is awful/fish and will call down the river shove in that spot with 2 pair, any King, sometimes a Queen. Hopefully your 50nl playing is going well for you, havent seen you at the tables to 3 bet you lately lol

yeah i definately feel that you should bet against some players, and c/c against others. i think joeingram summarised it fairly well in his second paragraph