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ToT)MidiaN(   United Kingdom. May 11 2008 04:56. Posts 3660 | | | |
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| I never worry about action, only inaction | |
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ToT)MidiaN(   United Kingdom. May 11 2008 05:01. Posts 3660 | | |
My image at this point is probably pretty standard and straight forward. Haven't done anything of note really, playing about 33/25/3 or so but pretty passive and straightforward post flop. |
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| I never worry about action, only inaction | |
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nolan   United States. May 11 2008 05:09. Posts 4009 | | |
There's probably more value in making it $1,500. A shove like that makes it much more likely you have a lock hand imo as you're not trying to "save" any $ when your bluff gets called. |
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| On September 08 2008 10:07 F4Zi wrote: i dont practice table selection | |
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ToT)MidiaN(   United Kingdom. May 11 2008 05:12. Posts 3660 | | |
Hm yea I never even considered a smaller raise. Might be good, but 1500 is not much less than his stack, which is about ~2.1k before any river action |
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| I never worry about action, only inaction | |
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nolan   United States. May 11 2008 06:05. Posts 4009 | | |
In that case I'd usually minraise. |
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| On September 08 2008 10:07 F4Zi wrote: i dont practice table selection | |
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Daut   United States. May 11 2008 08:54. Posts 4390 | | |
while i dont really believe that 2 way bets exist, there is an interesting phenomena where he will fold out a hand you chop with a certain percentage of the time while obviously calling a lot, but will call sometimes with hands worse than yours, but certainly at a lower percentage, i would say something along the following could happen:
1. he might fold a ten 1 in 20 so sometimes you fold out the chop
2. he might call worse 1 in 5 so sometimes you get value from worse
and i wouldnt say he never has JT (he certainly shows up with it sometimes) but when combined with the 2 above it becomes profitable to raise |
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| I think that poker is comparable to a starcraft 2v2 where your partner is your bankroll. It really sucks when im terran and they both rush my bankroll. - Travis Victor says: sending me pokerhand is like spitting in my face | |
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Rhaegar   Bulgaria. May 11 2008 11:17. Posts 2389 | | |
No value at all, just call. |
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| One very suspicious player | |
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Twisted   Netherlands. May 13 2008 00:26. Posts 7217 | | |
What about the times where villain is gonna level himself because of missed diamond draws or possibility of AdXd hands turning their hand into a bluff?
He might even think that you'd just call with a ten here so you could only shove with JT or bluff. I would always raise here. Well played imo. Minraise looks too strong and won't get called by worse here. |
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YoMeR   United States. May 13 2008 02:07. Posts 6459 | | |
I like this with the right image.
actually i like this in general nh |
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ToT)MidiaN(   United Kingdom. May 13 2008 02:34. Posts 3660 | | |
| | On May 13 2008 00:26 Twisted wrote:
What about the times where villain is gonna level himself because of missed diamond draws or possibility of AdXd hands turning their hand into a bluff?
He might even think that you'd just call with a ten here so you could only shove with JT or bluff. I would always raise here. Well played imo. Minraise looks too strong and won't get called by worse here. |
True, it obviously confused him what with this: "skier_5: wth"
He did think for like 3 seconds and call with Td9d but he may have just done the same with a smaller straight for all i know |
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| I never worry about action, only inaction | |
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Twisted   Netherlands. May 13 2008 05:33. Posts 7217 | | |
And why wouldn't we shove when he never has JT :|
shoving can never be bad if he never has it lol, second nuts ship it in. If anything, if he folds a set or something he doesn't get to see our hand! |
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Rhaegar   Bulgaria. May 13 2008 07:09. Posts 2389 | | |
We can never have JT, he can have it. Its a stupid move. |
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| One very suspicious player | |
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| | On May 11 2008 08:54 Daut wrote:
1. he might fold a ten 1 in 20 so sometimes you fold out the chop
2. he might call worse 1 in 5 so sometimes you get value from worse
and i wouldnt say he never has JT (he certainly shows up with it sometimes) but when combined with the 2 above it becomes profitable to raise |
perfect daut - also make sure to adjust the reraise size from all in too a non-all in based on who you face and his emotions, there is some value to be gained there, dont go braindead! |
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Rhaegar   Bulgaria. May 13 2008 16:05. Posts 2389 | | |
And you're all fucking morons...
First --> This guy is a pretty good player...
Second --> Guy leads into 2 people on a horrible board to bluff and checks turn on this board --> He has something v strong and its not a set. ATdd, A6dd are possible. JTdd is a very small possibility in truth, but he could decide to get tricky once in a while. TT is probably not in his range.
On river he bets --> he will definitely check 2 pair here, protecting with a check from a T sometimes.
I don't really see him bluffing river all that often (or at all for that matter), but I dont see him vbetting less than a ten as well.
And while the chance of him having JT is very low, there is at least some chance that he has it. There is like absolutely zero chance that we have it though (im pretty sure Midian will never check it behind or not raise flop for that matter)..
If there is 1% chance of him havig JT, our push is wrong, seeing as were not getting called by worse and not getting a fold from a split ever.
Actually, if theres 1/1000 chance of him having JT, our push is wrong.
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| One very suspicious player | |
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tomson   Poland. May 13 2008 16:23. Posts 1484 | | |
What if there's 1/10 000 chance of him having JT? Is that ok then? |
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Rhaegar   Bulgaria. May 13 2008 16:37. Posts 2389 | | |
Prob not. It does lose like 18c a hand to a call! |
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| One very suspicious player | Last edit: 13/05/2008 16:43 |
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Twisted   Netherlands. May 13 2008 23:48. Posts 7217 | | |
I think the times he calls with a set or a 5 or something is higher than the times he has JT.
=[ |
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Rekrul   United States. May 14 2008 00:01. Posts 2814 | | |
against a different opponent i'd shove but vs this nit it's better to flat call
he's not betting out that river with a five or a set, lol |
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DooMeR   United States. May 14 2008 00:55. Posts 6260 | | | |
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| I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance, by running away from the scene of an accident. | |
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Rhaegar   Bulgaria. May 14 2008 04:52. Posts 2389 | | |
Even if he is firing with a 5 or a T, hes never calling without a T and never folding a T. Sure, if it was some random idiot and especially if there was little left, shove.. Otherwise its pointless. |
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| One very suspicious player | |
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Joe   Czech Republic. May 14 2008 07:42. Posts 4851 | | |
I think the good thing about the push is that a nit might often fold a Ten there...
Imo it really depends on how sure you can be about him not having JT there. If the likelyhood of it is sick small and there is a decent he folds a T / calls with weaker, then it is good obv. |
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| there is a light at the end of the tunnel... (but sometimes the tunnel is long and deep as hell) | |
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KeyleK_uk   United Kingdom. May 14 2008 08:25. Posts 814 | | | |
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| poker is soooo much easier when you flop sets | |
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JonnyCosMo   United States. May 14 2008 12:21. Posts 4678 | | |
At first I really really liked this play, but the more im looking at it the more I'm starting to hate it. Basically the range of hands he bets the river is pretty thin in this spot imo, so him bluff catching a worse hand is nearly impossible unless he's turning a marginal made hand into a bluff on the river and deciding to be a hero. Plus the other thing is that you can never have JT here, and he can, so he looks you up with a ten almost always. Flat calling is better in this spot |
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| THEY WERE ALL CHEATING AGAINST YOU THATS WHY NOBODY PLAYED THEIR HANDS CORRECTLY AGAINST YOU AND THE DEALER TRIED TO GIVE IT AWAY BY TELLING YOU, ELEMENTARY MY DEAR FKING WATSON WTF KILL YOURSELF -Ket | |
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JonnyCosMo   United States. May 14 2008 12:22. Posts 4678 | | |
God I hate agreeing with a nit like doomer  |
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| THEY WERE ALL CHEATING AGAINST YOU THATS WHY NOBODY PLAYED THEIR HANDS CORRECTLY AGAINST YOU AND THE DEALER TRIED TO GIVE IT AWAY BY TELLING YOU, ELEMENTARY MY DEAR FKING WATSON WTF KILL YOURSELF -Ket | |
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Daut   United States. May 14 2008 12:30. Posts 4390 | | |
| | On May 13 2008 16:05 Rhaegar wrote:
And you're all fucking morons...
First --> This guy is a pretty good player...
Second --> Guy leads into 2 people on a horrible board to bluff and checks turn on this board --> He has something v strong and its not a set. ATdd, A6dd are possible. JTdd is a very small possibility in truth, but he could decide to get tricky once in a while. TT is probably not in his range.
On river he bets --> he will definitely check 2 pair here, protecting with a check from a T sometimes.
I don't really see him bluffing river all that often (or at all for that matter), but I dont see him vbetting less than a ten as well.
And while the chance of him having JT is very low, there is at least some chance that he has it. There is like absolutely zero chance that we have it though (im pretty sure Midian will never check it behind or not raise flop for that matter)..
If there is 1% chance of him havig JT, our push is wrong, seeing as were not getting called by worse and not getting a fold from a split ever.
Actually, if theres 1/1000 chance of him having JT, our push is wrong.
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like a) people never make mistakes
b) good players never get curious and look you up based on image
c) people dont valuebet thin
d) people dont turn hands into bluffs and then turn them into a value call because he thinks you are rebluffing
e) he doesnt ever make a mistake and fold out a chop
come on dude. people dont play perfect all the time. raising has value if the % he has JT is very low |
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| I think that poker is comparable to a starcraft 2v2 where your partner is your bankroll. It really sucks when im terran and they both rush my bankroll. - Travis Victor says: sending me pokerhand is like spitting in my face | Last edit: 14/05/2008 12:33 |
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Daut   United States. May 14 2008 12:34. Posts 4390 | | |
and id like to point out that i dont think raise or call are clearly better than the other. just sort of playing devils advocate because i see pros and cons to each |
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| I think that poker is comparable to a starcraft 2v2 where your partner is your bankroll. It really sucks when im terran and they both rush my bankroll. - Travis Victor says: sending me pokerhand is like spitting in my face | |
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n0rthf4ce   United States. May 14 2008 21:30. Posts 6495 | | |
i raise him my life! surely he folds to that. |
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Baal   Mexico. May 15 2008 03:10. Posts 18742 | | |
daisy
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| DCal Zone: DIE YOU LIQUID POKER CLOWNS | |
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Rhaegar   Bulgaria. May 16 2008 12:22. Posts 2389 | | |
Thats fine, but I think your assigning a much higher value to almost irrelevant things.
a) people never make mistakes --> They don't bet call worse on this board for 150bbs, knowing they have plenty of Tx in their range. No they dont. EVER.
b) good players never get curious and look you up based on image In spots, where its hard for either player to have a nut hand.. Sure. In this hand its obviously an EV- spot to bluff as he is pretty much repping the nuts and will have it often.
c) people dont valuebet thin --> And then fold to the shove, especially on a 4str board to a big bet..
d) people dont turn hands into bluffs and then turn them into a value call because he thinks you are rebluffing... WTF? Seriously?
e) he doesnt ever make a mistake and fold out a chop No, he doesnt. EVER.
None of those points really matter. If I saw this guy on mad tilt, that would be a valid point. |
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| One very suspicious player | |
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JonnyCosMo   United States. May 16 2008 12:32. Posts 4678 | | |
| | On May 16 2008 12:22 Rhaegar wrote:
Thats fine, but I think your assigning a much higher value to almost irrelevant things.
a) people never make mistakes --> They don't bet call worse on this board for 150bbs, knowing they have plenty of Tx in their range. No they dont. EVER.
b) good players never get curious and look you up based on image In spots, where its hard for either player to have a nut hand.. Sure. In this hand its obviously an EV- spot to bluff as he is pretty much repping the nuts and will have it often.
c) people dont valuebet thin --> And then fold to the shove, especially on a 4str board to a big bet..
d) people dont turn hands into bluffs and then turn them into a value call because he thinks you are rebluffing... WTF? Seriously?
e) he doesnt ever make a mistake and fold out a chop No, he doesnt. EVER.
None of those points really matter. If I saw this guy on mad tilt, that would be a valid point. |
This. |
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| THEY WERE ALL CHEATING AGAINST YOU THATS WHY NOBODY PLAYED THEIR HANDS CORRECTLY AGAINST YOU AND THE DEALER TRIED TO GIVE IT AWAY BY TELLING YOU, ELEMENTARY MY DEAR FKING WATSON WTF KILL YOURSELF -Ket | |
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Rhaegar   Bulgaria. May 16 2008 17:00. Posts 2389 | | |
Wtf is wrong with this forum |
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| One very suspicious player | |
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Baal   Mexico. May 16 2008 18:42. Posts 18742 | | |
what? i didnt understand cosmo's post |
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| DCal Zone: DIE YOU LIQUID POKER CLOWNS | |
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[vital]Myth   United States. May 16 2008 19:02. Posts 10705 | | |
| | On May 14 2008 21:30 n0rthf4ce wrote:
i raise him my life! surely he folds to that. |
wtf i would snapcall
your life's not that great |
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| Eh, I can go a few more orbits in life, before taxes blind me out - PoorUser | |
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n0rthf4ce   United States. May 16 2008 19:31. Posts 6495 | | |
ok let me try and make a really good serious post and put down my thoughts...
From what I know of skier from playing with him and from what I know of you based on your reputation, neither of you EVER has J10 here after the turn goes check/check. He won't ever be checking J10dd on the turn here because the best line here for him, as far as stack sizes go and as you are both very aggressive players, is to bet and induce a bluffraise from you with the ace falling. Checking with the intention of checkraising is a much worse line because it gets less money from bluffs, and also allows you to check behind with a huge range of hands as the ace is more or less a scary card. If he bets and you have A9 or a set you are raise/calling or shoving anyways.
As such, shoving the river is a very artful move. Sure, in terms of logic and EV it probably doesn't make much sense, and if he shows us J10 we feel stupid (although this never happens ). There are huge advantages to this move though. The first thing he will do is underestimate our abilities in logic and therefore at poker in general. This leads to several things, including making huge mistakes in the future by calling off lighter on the river, or simply just making us harder to play because we can do unpredictable things such as shoving the river here. He can never say about our range, "oh, this guy can never have X here because hes incapable". In my mind, this is far more important, and its ok to sacrifice EV and look like a monkey sometimes. |
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n0rthf4ce   United States. May 16 2008 21:37. Posts 6495 | | |
i think what most likely happened is that he bank/folded to your shove. |
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ZeeRaX   Bulgaria. May 16 2008 21:56. Posts 16 | | |
to sum it up, I thinnk both Rhaegar and n0rthf4ace made very good points. To me it's clear that in a vaccum calling is best (by a very small margin). Having in mind image considerations both options are viable (it all depends to what image you want to have ; what image you are comfortable with). If your known to call in spots like this everytime, you can use this to make thin +ev river bluffs, if your known to always raise you can use this to value bet thin on the river. |
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ZeeRaX   Bulgaria. May 16 2008 22:18. Posts 16 | | |
its like, if I have nitty image, I will never raise in this spot, cause it's likely to be called, and I dont want villain to see that i am cappable of doing this with a 10 ( would make my future river bluffs a little harder to succeed), but if I have monkey image and i just call .... .. Its all about abusing your own image..... |
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ZeeRaX   Bulgaria. May 16 2008 22:34. Posts 16 | | |
with midian's image its a clear raise .... and I think flop is a fold vs described vilain |
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ZeeRaX   Bulgaria. May 16 2008 23:04. Posts 16 | | |
ohh.. and DAUT is always right... I just miss the good old days when he was posting advice to every topic. |
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ToT)MidiaN(   United Kingdom. May 17 2008 05:03. Posts 3660 | | |
I agree with peachy that he never has JT here, I felt like I was freerolling, and also I would much rather gain the "metagame" benefits from shoving here and him seeing it or going "wtf" and then folding than the "benefits" i get from just calling.
In the actual hand he said "wth" clicked timebank then called with Td9d after 3~ seconds of thinking. I don't think he EVER EVER folds a chop cause i can NEVER EVER have JT, however I do think OCCASIONALLY you get looked up by some smaller straight that had a flush draw on the flop like A5d cause he knows i never have JT and probably doesn't think I'm capable of raising a T here on the river cause logically it makes little sense as Rhaegar has pointed out. Or maybe you think he doesn't bet ANYTHING but a Ten? He doesn't value bet a 5 on the river? I dunno I'm happy with my raise even now but I think it's pretty meh either way. |
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| I never worry about action, only inaction | |
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Daut   United States. May 17 2008 08:59. Posts 4390 | | |
think about what you guys are saying
1. YOU NEVER HAVE JT
2. YOU DONT THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA TO RAISE A TEN ON THE RIVER
3. HES NEVER CALLING WORSE
LOL AT YOUR LOGIC |
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| I think that poker is comparable to a starcraft 2v2 where your partner is your bankroll. It really sucks when im terran and they both rush my bankroll. - Travis Victor says: sending me pokerhand is like spitting in my face | |
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