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Joe   Czech Republic. May 14 2008 07:42. Posts 4704

I think the good thing about the push is that a nit might often fold a Ten there...

Imo it really depends on how sure you can be about him not having JT there. If the likelyhood of it is sick small and there is a decent he folds a T / calls with weaker, then it is good obv.

there is a light at the end of the tunnel... (but sometimes the tunnel is long and deep as hell) 

KeyleK_uk   United Kingdom. May 14 2008 08:25. Posts 731

no value in a push

poker is soooo much easier when you flop sets 

JonnyCosMo   United States. May 14 2008 12:21. Posts 4330

At first I really really liked this play, but the more im looking at it the more I'm starting to hate it. Basically the range of hands he bets the river is pretty thin in this spot imo, so him bluff catching a worse hand is nearly impossible unless he's turning a marginal made hand into a bluff on the river and deciding to be a hero. Plus the other thing is that you can never have JT here, and he can, so he looks you up with a ten almost always. Flat calling is better in this spot

THEY WERE ALL CHEATING AGAINST YOU THATS WHY NOBODY PLAYED THEIR HANDS CORRECTLY AGAINST YOU AND THE DEALER TRIED TO GIVE IT AWAY BY TELLING YOU, ELEMENTARY MY DEAR FKING WATSON WTF KILL YOURSELF -Ket 

JonnyCosMo   United States. May 14 2008 12:22. Posts 4330

God I hate agreeing with a nit like doomer

THEY WERE ALL CHEATING AGAINST YOU THATS WHY NOBODY PLAYED THEIR HANDS CORRECTLY AGAINST YOU AND THE DEALER TRIED TO GIVE IT AWAY BY TELLING YOU, ELEMENTARY MY DEAR FKING WATSON WTF KILL YOURSELF -Ket 

Daut    United States. May 14 2008 12:30. Posts 4225
This guy is a pretty good player... Second --> Guy leads into 2 people on a horrible board to bluff and checks turn on this board --> He has something v strong and its not a set. ATdd, A6dd are possible. JTdd is a very small possibility in truth, but he could decide to get tricky once in a while. TT is probably not in his range. On river he bets --> he will definitely check 2 pair here, protecting with a check from a T sometimes. I don't really see him bluffing river all that often (or at all for that matter), but I dont see him vbetting less than a ten as well. And while the chance of him having JT is very low, there is at least some chance that he has it. There is like absolutely zero chance that we have it though (im pretty sure Midian will never check it behind or not raise flop for that matter).. If there is 1% chance of him havig JT, our push is wrong, seeing as were not getting called by worse and not getting a fold from a split ever. Actually, if theres 1/1000 chance of him having JT, our push is wrong. [/QUOTE] like a) people never make mistakes b) good players never get curious and look you up based on image c) people dont valuebet thin d) people dont turn hands into bluffs and then turn them into a value call because he thinks you are rebluffing e) he doesnt ever make a mistake and fold out a chop come on dude. people dont play perfect all the time. raising has value if the % he has JT is very low -->


  On May 13 2008 16:05 Rhaegar wrote:
And you're all fucking morons...

First --> This guy is a pretty good player...
Second --> Guy leads into 2 people on a horrible board to bluff and checks turn on this board --> He has something v strong and its not a set. ATdd, A6dd are possible. JTdd is a very small possibility in truth, but he could decide to get tricky once in a while. TT is probably not in his range.
On river he bets --> he will definitely check 2 pair here, protecting with a check from a T sometimes.
I don't really see him bluffing river all that often (or at all for that matter), but I dont see him vbetting less than a ten as well.
And while the chance of him having JT is very low, there is at least some chance that he has it. There is like absolutely zero chance that we have it though (im pretty sure Midian will never check it behind or not raise flop for that matter)..


If there is 1% chance of him havig JT, our push is wrong, seeing as were not getting called by worse and not getting a fold from a split ever.
Actually, if theres 1/1000 chance of him having JT, our push is wrong.




like a) people never make mistakes
b) good players never get curious and look you up based on image
c) people dont valuebet thin
d) people dont turn hands into bluffs and then turn them into a value call because he thinks you are rebluffing
e) he doesnt ever make a mistake and fold out a chop

come on dude. people dont play perfect all the time. raising has value if the % he has JT is very low

I think that poker is comparable to a starcraft 2v2 where your partner is your bankroll. It really sucks when im terran and they both rush my bankroll. - Travis Victor says: sending me pokerhand is like spitting in my faceLast edit: 14/05/2008 12:33

Daut    United States. May 14 2008 12:34. Posts 4225

and id like to point out that i dont think raise or call are clearly better than the other. just sort of playing devils advocate because i see pros and cons to each

I think that poker is comparable to a starcraft 2v2 where your partner is your bankroll. It really sucks when im terran and they both rush my bankroll. - Travis Victor says: sending me pokerhand is like spitting in my face 

n0rthf4ce    United States. May 14 2008 21:30. Posts 6100

i raise him my life! surely he folds to that.

www.cardrunners.com 

DooMeR   United States. May 15 2008 02:52. Posts 5916


  On May 14 2008 12:22 JonnyCosMo wrote:
God I hate agreeing with a nit like doomer


I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance, by running away from the scene of an accident. 

Baal   . May 15 2008 03:10. Posts 17196

daisy

DCal Zone: DIE YOU LIQUID POKER CLOWNS 

Rhaegar    Bulgaria. May 16 2008 12:22. Posts 2345
They don't bet call worse on this board for 150bbs, knowing they have plenty of Tx in their range. No they dont. EVER. b) good players never get curious and look you up based on image In spots, where its hard for either player to have a nut hand.. Sure. In this hand its obviously an EV- spot to bluff as he is pretty much repping the nuts and will have it often. c) people dont valuebet thin --> And then fold to the shove, especially on a 4str board to a big bet.. d) people dont turn hands into bluffs and then turn them into a value call because he thinks you are rebluffing... WTF? Seriously? e) he doesnt ever make a mistake and fold out a chop No, he doesnt. EVER. None of those points really matter. If I saw this guy on mad tilt, that would be a valid point. -->

Thats fine, but I think your assigning a much higher value to almost irrelevant things.

a) people never make mistakes --> They don't bet call worse on this board for 150bbs, knowing they have plenty of Tx in their range. No they dont. EVER.
b) good players never get curious and look you up based on image In spots, where its hard for either player to have a nut hand.. Sure. In this hand its obviously an EV- spot to bluff as he is pretty much repping the nuts and will have it often.
c) people dont valuebet thin --> And then fold to the shove, especially on a 4str board to a big bet..
d) people dont turn hands into bluffs and then turn them into a value call because he thinks you are rebluffing... WTF? Seriously?
e) he doesnt ever make a mistake and fold out a chop No, he doesnt. EVER.

None of those points really matter. If I saw this guy on mad tilt, that would be a valid point.

One very suspicious player 

JonnyCosMo   United States. May 16 2008 12:32. Posts 4330
They don't bet call worse on this board for 150bbs, knowing they have plenty of Tx in their range. No they dont. EVER. b) good players never get curious and look you up based on image In spots, where its hard for either player to have a nut hand.. Sure. In this hand its obviously an EV- spot to bluff as he is pretty much repping the nuts and will have it often. c) people dont valuebet thin --> And then fold to the shove, especially on a 4str board to a big bet.. d) people dont turn hands into bluffs and then turn them into a value call because he thinks you are rebluffing... WTF? Seriously? e) he doesnt ever make a mistake and fold out a chop No, he doesnt. EVER. None of those points really matter. If I saw this guy on mad tilt, that would be a valid point.[/QUOTE] This. -->


  On May 16 2008 12:22 Rhaegar wrote:
Thats fine, but I think your assigning a much higher value to almost irrelevant things.

a) people never make mistakes --> They don't bet call worse on this board for 150bbs, knowing they have plenty of Tx in their range. No they dont. EVER.
b) good players never get curious and look you up based on image In spots, where its hard for either player to have a nut hand.. Sure. In this hand its obviously an EV- spot to bluff as he is pretty much repping the nuts and will have it often.
c) people dont valuebet thin --> And then fold to the shove, especially on a 4str board to a big bet..
d) people dont turn hands into bluffs and then turn them into a value call because he thinks you are rebluffing... WTF? Seriously?
e) he doesnt ever make a mistake and fold out a chop No, he doesnt. EVER.

None of those points really matter. If I saw this guy on mad tilt, that would be a valid point.



This.

THEY WERE ALL CHEATING AGAINST YOU THATS WHY NOBODY PLAYED THEIR HANDS CORRECTLY AGAINST YOU AND THE DEALER TRIED TO GIVE IT AWAY BY TELLING YOU, ELEMENTARY MY DEAR FKING WATSON WTF KILL YOURSELF -Ket 

Rhaegar    Bulgaria. May 16 2008 17:00. Posts 2345

Wtf is wrong with this forum

One very suspicious player 

Baal   . May 16 2008 18:42. Posts 17196

what? i didnt understand cosmo's post

DCal Zone: DIE YOU LIQUID POKER CLOWNS 

[vital]Myth    United States. May 16 2008 19:02. Posts 9979


  On May 14 2008 21:30 n0rthf4ce wrote:
i raise him my life! surely he folds to that.

wtf i would snapcall

your life's not that great

Eh, I can go a few more orbits in life, before taxes blind me out - PoorUser 

n0rthf4ce    United States. May 16 2008 19:31. Posts 6100

ok let me try and make a really good serious post and put down my thoughts...

From what I know of skier from playing with him and from what I know of you based on your reputation, neither of you EVER has J10 here after the turn goes check/check. He won't ever be checking J10dd on the turn here because the best line here for him, as far as stack sizes go and as you are both very aggressive players, is to bet and induce a bluffraise from you with the ace falling. Checking with the intention of checkraising is a much worse line because it gets less money from bluffs, and also allows you to check behind with a huge range of hands as the ace is more or less a scary card. If he bets and you have A9 or a set you are raise/calling or shoving anyways.

As such, shoving the river is a very artful move. Sure, in terms of logic and EV it probably doesn't make much sense, and if he shows us J10 we feel stupid (although this never happens ). There are huge advantages to this move though. The first thing he will do is underestimate our abilities in logic and therefore at poker in general. This leads to several things, including making huge mistakes in the future by calling off lighter on the river, or simply just making us harder to play because we can do unpredictable things such as shoving the river here. He can never say about our range, "oh, this guy can never have X here because hes incapable". In my mind, this is far more important, and its ok to sacrifice EV and look like a monkey sometimes.

www.cardrunners.com 

n0rthf4ce    United States. May 16 2008 21:37. Posts 6100

i think what most likely happened is that he bank/folded to your shove.

www.cardrunners.com 

ZeeRaX   Bulgaria. May 16 2008 21:56. Posts 16

to sum it up, I thinnk both Rhaegar and n0rthf4ace made very good points. To me it's clear that in a vaccum calling is best (by a very small margin). Having in mind image considerations both options are viable (it all depends to what image you want to have ; what image you are comfortable with). If your known to call in spots like this everytime, you can use this to make thin +ev river bluffs, if your known to always raise you can use this to value bet thin on the river.


ZeeRaX   Bulgaria. May 16 2008 22:18. Posts 16

its like, if I have nitty image, I will never raise in this spot, cause it's likely to be called, and I dont want villain to see that i am cappable of doing this with a 10 ( would make my future river bluffs a little harder to succeed), but if I have monkey image and i just call .... .. Its all about abusing your own image.....


ZeeRaX   Bulgaria. May 16 2008 22:34. Posts 16

with midian's image its a clear raise .... and I think flop is a fold vs described vilain


ZeeRaX   Bulgaria. May 16 2008 23:04. Posts 16

ohh.. and DAUT is always right... I just miss the good old days when he was posting advice to every topic.


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