400 NL vs LPer

Villain is a very solid LPer, one of the best regs imo.He doesn't make much moves but has a very active image. Same as me. We both play 22/18/4 fwiw.

I wonder what lines you guys take in this hand and why.


Submitted by : Loco

***** Hand History for Game 7046742315 *****
$400 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, May 10, 23:49:54 ET 2008
Table Table 126838 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: spike432 ( $387.48 USD )
Seat 6: rifleman102 ( $89.36 USD )
Seat 2: Hero ( $445 USD )
Seat 4: KrucheVseh ( $551 USD )
Seat 5: sidibe ( $550 USD )
Seat 1: ahmet1601 ( $416.30 USD )
ahmet1601 posts small blind [$2 USD].
Hero posts big blind [$4 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
spike432 folds .
KrucheVseh raises [$15 USD]
sidibe folds .
rifleman102 calls [$15 USD]
ahmet1601 folds .
Hero raises [$62 USD]
KrucheVseh calls [$51 USD]
rifleman102 calls [$51 USD]

Flop (Pot : $200.00)

   
Hero

i put out a bet and give up to resistance
what are you beating here? he's never calling with AJ

I think the only way this hand can be played is straightforward given the potsize and stacksizes, but it's really strange that he elects to just flat call with the short stack behind. Prob just bet/call, maybe bet something like 90-100 since your hand is going to be so transparent. I think you can find reason to fold if he shoves but I'm too much of a donk to fold here.

dont think hes flatting AK often against a potential squeeze, bet flop shove turn is the standard w/ the occasional check shove*

which LP'er is it Loco?

don't remember his LP name. not important anyways.

On May 10 2008 22:02 TalentedTom wrote: dont think hes flatting AK often against a potential squeeze, bet flop shove turn is the standard w/ the occasional check shove*

I think he is, the only reason why I think so is because I'm never squeezing there with the shortstacked calling station retard in the hand. I also think he would never call with AJ there. That means that betting flop and shoving turn is pure spew. I guess I should've mentioned that in the OP

why do you 3bet this if you are not willing to go broke on this kind of flop?
listen to tom, he never gives bad advice

On May 11 2008 00:40 brudman wrote: why do you 3bet this if you are not willing to go broke on this kind of flop? listen to tom, he never gives bad advice

because he opens tons of hands obviously. does that mean that he calls 3bets light? or stacks off easily? no. also because I would like to isolate the shortstack and get it in with him (which I will most of the time) also because it puts him in a gay spot because he knows i'm not squeezing there with the shortstack in the hand, so I think he folds AQ/mid pocket pairs to me pf. Anyway i'm not saying 3betting was the best play pre flop, I kind of like a call too but those are the reasons I did it.

edit: lol yea because tom is perfect.

Here's what I think;

I think betting the flop isn't optimal. I think if I check and he bets or checks his range is very polarized and I can play the turn and river optimally.If he bets the flop I think it's a very good hand every time since I wouldn't see him bluffing with shortstack in the hand, if he checks I think I have the best hand most of the time, unless hes slowplaying KK or possibly AA.

If I bet the flop i'm folding out the hands I crush and I'm getting valuetowned by hands that crush me.

Is my logic flawed? I'd really like to know why are we so optimistic about sticking all the money in here.

With that stacksizes you're gonna be all in either way. And I think at this stakes 3b is used enough to see ppl calling with AJs or KQs in position, specially a guy like this. I like a $130 bet. There's no reason to check TPTK with the ace in the flop or you're gonna give free cards to smaller pairs. Think that your villian TAG is not gonna bluff with the shortie fish in the pot imo. Just bet and risk it all

Ok, I know you're getting action most of the time by best hands, but you have to protect your pot. If you think villian is gonna be str8forward enough, then only bet the remaining cash the shortie has and go into check mode turn and river

On May 11 2008 01:42 Loco wrote: Here's what I think; I think betting the flop isn't optimal. I think if I check and he bets or checks his range is very polarized and I can play the turn and river optimally.If he bets the flop I think it's a very good hand every time since I wouldn't see him bluffing with shortstack in the hand, if he checks I think I have the best hand most of the time, unless hes slowplaying KK or possibly AA. If I bet the flop i'm folding out the hands I crush and I'm getting valuetowned by hands that crush me. Is my logic flawed? I'd really like to know why are we so optimistic about sticking all the money in here.

by your logic you should just bet the flop and then be done with the hand. check-check-check is a really bad result, a free card to 2 people in position who are only going to gain value from that card. just because your full-stacked opponent won't pay you off doesn't mean you shouldn't bet. yes, your bet loses some money when he has you beaten, which is very rare. but it gains a lot of money from the shortstack and protects your hand from a little bit of trouble. plus, for balance's sake, you should just bet and confidently give up facing resistance in a spot like this, when playing with somebody who is a good regular in your games.

I like check because the shortstack is gonna shove 99% of the time with any holding trying to bluff you guys. Then if you just call his shove and the reg is coming over the top or calling you're done with the hand with the least amount lost postflop. He's not raising with a guaranteed showdown against the shorty with a worse hand than AQ. If he's flatcalling I'm checking it down giving up to resistance.

I think betting is spew.

On May 11 2008 02:04 [vital]Myth wrote: Show nested quote + On May 11 2008 01:42 Loco wrote: Here's what I think; I think betting the flop isn't optimal. I think if I check and he bets or checks his range is very polarized and I can play the turn and river optimally.If he bets the flop I think it's a very good hand every time since I wouldn't see him bluffing with shortstack in the hand, if he checks I think I have the best hand most of the time, unless hes slowplaying KK or possibly AA. If I bet the flop i'm folding out the hands I crush and I'm getting valuetowned by hands that crush me. Is my logic flawed? I'd really like to know why are we so optimistic about sticking all the money in here. by your logic you should just bet the flop and then be done with the hand. check-check-check is a really bad result, a free card to 2 people in position who are only going to gain value from that card. just because your full-stacked opponent won't pay you off doesn't mean you shouldn't bet. yes, your bet loses some money when he has you beaten, which is very rare. but it gains a lot of money from the shortstack and protects your hand from a little bit of trouble. plus, for balance's sake, you should just bet and confidently give up facing resistance in a spot like this, when playing with somebody who is a good regular in your games.

No, by my logic betting the flop is atrocious. The shortstack has $25 left, I don't care about him. I care about what Kruche will do though, I know he's not going to try and bluff me out of the hand obviously, so when I think about the range of hands he has that bet this flop and that I beat, it's slim to none. So then on the turn by checking the flop, I'd feel confident and fire to protect my hand and put the shorty all-in (in case he didn't shove the flop) I doubt giving one free card is worse than betting this flop.

edit: glad to see Twisted is having a similar opinion, i'd like to get some more opinions though

blah blah blah top pair in 3b pot get it all in.

To OP: By ur logic u shouldnt 3-bet AQo preflop (unless it is meant as a pure bluff).

For me, if I hit TP with AQ in 3-bet pot and it is not more than 100bb deep and the flop is not sick awfull, I am quite happy to get it allin.

And btw him not ever calling u down with worse can mean that
a) he is very tight preflop and then u should exploit it buy often bluffing the same way
b) you never ever bluff there so that he can make an easy fold, in which case u either should bluff there at least some times or not 3-bet him there with AQ like ever

Just some quick thoughts while playing dota...

Joe;
Like I said I don't think 3betting pre flop is necessarily the best play but I did, and I said the reasons why I did it. Tell me why my reasons aren't valid instead of just telling me some random generic reply "if you do this it means you have to do that".

And like I said he's very active so no he isn't very tight pre flop, as to calling reraises yes he might be, even more if there's a shortstack behind and this is why I decided to reraise. It doesn't mean that I never ever bluff here, it's just that he's never seen me do it before, therefore he's going to give me credit for reraising out of the blinds vs his EP raise and the shortstacker that will most likely call/reraise all in. I'm not turning my hand into a bluff, but i'm definitely not confident about it if Kruche calls,which kind of defies the logic of 3beting in the first place but i'm playing solely the situation and think he folds a lot pre flop, hadn't 3bet him in a little while too so it's always good.

I feel that Loco's ideas has some merit but if someone never gets it in with worse here (even including the shortstack, which should make him tighten up a bit) he's really exploitable. I don't think a good solid LPer would put you in situations where TPGK should be considered a very marginal holding in a 3-bet pot very often.

I also see merit in betting like 50.

The shortstack makes this hand easy to play because we can't be bluffed by worse. Yay.

On May 10 2008 23:27 TimDawg wrote: which LP'er is it Loco?

"okyougosu" used to be Lammerman in starcraft.

On May 11 2008 05:32 DustySwedeDude wrote: I feel that Loco's ideas has some merit but if someone never gets it in with worse here (even including the shortstack, which should make him tighten up a bit) he's really exploitable. I don't think a good solid LPer would put you in situations where TPGK should be considered a very marginal holding in a 3-bet pot very often.

I don't think people are ever really gonna bluff raise you with the shortstack in there, and by that token I also don't think they are going to get it in with worse.

I'd shove a flushdraw here all day if I call pf. If he has any kind of A it's AQ+ most of the time I guess and that would shove so you're splitting/freerolling some of the time at least. AA, KK, AK seems like a far too tight range here.

On May 11 2008 01:42 Loco wrote: Here's what I think; I think betting the flop isn't optimal. I think if I check and he bets or checks his range is very polarized and I can play the turn and river optimally.If he bets the flop I think it's a very good hand every time since I wouldn't see him bluffing with shortstack in the hand, if he checks I think I have the best hand most of the time, unless hes slowplaying KK or possibly AA. If I bet the flop i'm folding out the hands I crush and I'm getting valuetowned by hands that crush me. Is my logic flawed? I'd really like to know why are we so optimistic about sticking all the money in here.

Can't the same be said if u bet? I feel like in either case his range is going to be very polarized making your decision fairly easy if this is your read on the villain. So then it just comes down to which play will save you more money when he has something since by your logic it's unlikely he's going to ever bet or call your bet with worse. Also, it doesn't seem like the bet sizing is too important given that the shortstack is almost always going to be going to showdown so I would much rather be in control of the size of the pot and lead out here. So in this case, just lead out small and fold to a raise, or if he calls just check it down. The problem I see with checking is that the pot is already 200 and check/fold seems awful if u 3bet with AQ pf. So if he bets say 150 then how are you supposed to fold to another bet on the turn/river?

On May 11 2008 08:15 ToT)MidiaN( wrote: Show nested quote + On May 10 2008 23:27 TimDawg wrote: which LP'er is it Loco? "okyougosu" used to be Lammerman in starcraft.

"okyougosu" is O1eja (spelling?) on pty.

OP; this is an easy bet/call. After you bet 135 you'll be getting good pot odds to call(can't be bothered to calculate atm). Against the range of AQ,KK+ you're ~2:1 dog, assuming AK 4bets pf.

On May 11 2008 08:15 ToT)MidiaN( wrote: Show nested quote + On May 10 2008 23:27 TimDawg wrote: which LP'er is it Loco? "okyougosu" used to be Lammerman in starcraft.

that's not him

On May 11 2008 12:47 taqtiX wrote: Show nested quote + On May 11 2008 08:15 ToT)MidiaN( wrote:   On May 10 2008 23:27 TimDawg wrote: which LP'er is it Loco? "okyougosu" used to be Lammerman in starcraft. "okyougosu" is O1eja (spelling?) on pty. OP; this is an easy bet/call. After you bet 135 you'll be getting good pot odds to call(can't be bothered to calculate atm). Against the range of AQ,KK+ you're ~2:1 dog, assuming AK 4bets pf.

Like I said, AK is very much in his calling range because my 3bet range is tighter for reraising there.

On May 11 2008 15:44 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On May 11 2008 08:15 ToT)MidiaN( wrote:   On May 10 2008 23:27 TimDawg wrote: which LP'er is it Loco? "okyougosu" used to be Lammerman in starcraft. that's not him

Ah shit. You're right, it's "DikiyPodem"

yes that's him

knew it was on of those dirty russians ! ! !! !! 1111

lol

How can you make such an easy decicions into such difficulties...

On May 11 2008 22:39 Vic3Roy wrote: How can you make such an easy decicions into such difficulties...

funny guy

I guess this is why I barely ever bother posting in the hand discussion forum anymore

full of bandwagonning faggots not willing to discuss poker with any sort of depth

k suppose you bet flop.

1. everyone folds. good result
2. soliduser folds, shorty calls. good result
3. shorty folds, soliduser calls. good result, you're extremely unlikely to be beaten and you just got value from a FD, suspicious KX, or weaker ace.
4. shorty calls, soliduser overcalls. fair result. same thing as 3 but soliduser's range is stronger and your equity is somewhat lower in the main pot.
5. shorty calls, soliduser raises. bad result.

i would rank those possibilities, by likelihood, in the following order: 2 > 1 > 3 > 4 > 5.

it should be pretty clear that the times when result (1) would have happened, checking the flop makes them worse. by pot controlling, you are giving the soliduser a few more opportunities to bluff. and even if he would never decide to bluff because you checked the flop, he will still gain some value from the free card. when result (2) would have happened, checking the flop doesn't really change much, because the soliduser won't be able to bluff you after the shorty gets allin on the turn. when result (3) would have happened, there are definitely fewer losing hands that will call the turn than the flop, since draws are less likely to call on the turn when they didn't hit. when result (4) would have happened, checking the flop won't really change much, except that the soliduser can sometimes play his hand for value against the shorty and simultaneously bluff against you, since you turned your hand face-up on the flop. when result (5) would have happened, you probably lose a lot less money by checking the flop.

so even though the least likely outcome (which is also the worst one) becomes a lot better when you check the flop, every other outcome (which are the good ones) becomes worse when you check the flop

imo

I see your point for the number of outcomes and how betting is whats the most profitable on paper but it's not like the frequency in which they would happen is all equal.

I think you are over-valuating the value of my hand in this spot with "2" and also not giving enough credit to soliduser if you think he is calling with Kxs/weaker ace here(and PF). That's the big problem imo.

Also the shorty is never ever folding even if he has 22(again on paper he can but it's just not going to happen), it's not important to me if I give him a free card(which imo isn't going to happen like EVER because he will stick in his remaining $24 asap he's just retarded for not putting it in pf) so 1/2/3 aren't happening. and it's not that important that I give a free card to soliduser either because I believe if he checks behind, he's probably drawing to 2 outs or if trapping, possibly has me drawing almost dead.

and 4 and 5 are really bad results. to be honest I can't see one hand that would call me on the flop that I beat. I said I think he folds AJ there pf to me in this spot.

if that's your analysis then i don't think you are giving NEARLY enough consideration to the fact that your 3bet preflop with AQ is implicitly HORRENDOUS if you can't get any value on a flop like this

as far as i see it, these two things cannot both simultaneously be true:

a. preflop 3bet is fine, even if it's not great
b. can't get value on this flop

either (a) or (b) is wrong. if you're this confident in your postflop analysis, then i think your preflop 3bet has to be a really big spew, and should be the most important point of this thread

On May 12 2008 01:59 Loco wrote: also not giving enough credit to soliduser if you think he is calling with Kxs/weaker ace here(and PF)

also, i don't think that i'm "not giving him enough credit" by making those assumptions. good players make thin value calls against aggressive players all the time. it's not necessarily great or terrible for him to have a super-tight range for looking you up in this situation. so i certainly don't think i'm calling him a poor player by assuming he can look you up light

Eh, 3betting expecting that the solid player folds and you get it in with the fishcake is a reasonable play. I imagine if the fish had folded preflop then he wouldn't have 3bet AQ. If that's the case then checking the flop is reasonable as well.

You really need to consider how often the original raiser folds to determine how good the 3bet is. The quality of the play goes up the more often he folds, for obvious reasons.

I think you're forgetting to look at the intent of the 3bet myth, and that was to isolate the fish.

^ correct.

so are we suggesting c/c? What's the plan here

well that's what I did but I don't think it's good at all. although it enables me to do a good fold on the turn if he bets again. maybe I can make that fold on the flop and that's what I was questioning before making this thread. It just seemed impossible and unthinkable to me to check fold this flop on the spot, but what am I hoping for by check/calling here? we have already established that he is not betting the flop as a bluff or with a worse hand, ever.

if weaker aces are never in his range then you should never try to get big value from this hand. if you check and he bets you have an incredibly easy fold based on everything you have said. i would bet enough to get the shorty in and fold to resistance from the big stack. if he calls and turn goes check check maybe make another very small river bet that he can't fold to for giggles.

and loco why are you being so hostile, good players are trying to help you, you should be thanking them.

Loco, are u still advocating C/C or C/F over B/F? I don't get it. What kind of range are you putting him on for just calling your 3bet? AK/KK/AA only?. If you think he will just call you with AK, then I don't see any reason to believe why he wouldn't be just calling with JJ or QQ. If his range is AK/JJ+, then you're right he's only going to be betting the hands that beat you and checking the ones that you beat. Then theoretically, you should be able to just check/fold if that is his range. But given the fact that you're in the heat of the moment and you 3bet AQ and hit your hand I would think you're more inclined to C/C than C/F which is exactly what you did. Therefore, it would be better to B/F than C/C since it's going to save you money if you're never folding the flop to a bet, and even a small bet is going to fold out his weaker holdings.

It seems to me like what you're trying to imply in your posts is that C/F should be your only option. How much history do you have with the villain, and do you know his tendencies for calling a 3bet? From your posts, it looks like you don't have a whole lot of info about either so I don't think you can ever advocate C/F after 3betting AQ and getting an AKx board because that just seems wayyyyy too exploitable.

On May 12 2008 12:19 Grass.nS) wrote: I don't think you can ever advocate C/F after 3betting AQ and getting an AKx board because that just seems wayyyyy too exploitable.

ya agreed, lets hope villain never reads these forums.

On May 11 2008 12:50 RaSZi wrote: get it in as fast as possible

keepin' it simple

On May 12 2008 13:34 TalentedTom wrote: Show nested quote + On May 11 2008 12:50 RaSZi wrote: get it in as fast as possible keepin' it simple

agreed... this is being way overanalyzed for a 111bb nl400 hand in a 3bet squeezed pot no less...

On May 12 2008 10:02 Yugless wrote: if weaker aces are never in his range then you should never try to get big value from this hand. if you check and he bets you have an incredibly easy fold based on everything you have said. i would bet enough to get the shorty in and fold to resistance from the big stack. if he calls and turn goes check check maybe make another very small river bet that he can't fold to for giggles. and loco why are you being so hostile, good players are trying to help you, you should be thanking them.

I am hostile? the only post that was hostile was towarded to Vic3Roy who didn't contribute anything to the thread and who isn't a good player. Or am I hostile because I disagree with better players?

On May 12 2008 15:26 CirCa wrote: Show nested quote + On May 12 2008 13:34 TalentedTom wrote:   On May 11 2008 12:50 RaSZi wrote: get it in as fast as possible keepin' it simple agreed... this is being way overanalyzed for a 111bb nl400 hand in a 3bet squeezed pot no less...

yea it's just one buy in let's spew it without thinking

On May 12 2008 16:14 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On May 12 2008 15:26 CirCa wrote:   On May 12 2008 13:34 TalentedTom wrote:   On May 11 2008 12:50 RaSZi wrote: get it in as fast as possible keepin' it simple agreed... this is being way overanalyzed for a 111bb nl400 hand in a 3bet squeezed pot no less... yea it's just one buy in let's spew it without thinking

lmao and you ask how you are being hostile?

for a simple hand it is being overanalyzed

On May 12 2008 16:14 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On May 12 2008 15:26 CirCa wrote:   On May 12 2008 13:34 TalentedTom wrote:   On May 11 2008 12:50 RaSZi wrote: get it in as fast as possible keepin' it simple agreed... this is being way overanalyzed for a 111bb nl400 hand in a 3bet squeezed pot no less... yea it's just one buy in let's spew it without thinking

spew? ok buddy... why do i get the feeling you are being completely results oriented?

don't get all mad because people aren't agreeing with you...

why do i get the feeling that everything I have said to explain my thought process and my read on the player has just been totally ignored by some of you guys?

yes its a spew. and im not the only one thinking it is. even twisted/freak agreed with me. Sorry for disagreeing, I should just be bandwagonning, my bad for making things so difficult.

i think this really depends on your image. If your really nitty enought that hes always folding AQ/KQ/AJ then bet once and be done.

IF your regularly bringing the pain then get it in.

On May 12 2008 17:53 Loco wrote: why do i get the feeling that everything I have said to explain my thought process and my read on the player has just been totally ignored by some of you guys? yes its a spew. and im not the only one thinking it is. even twisted/freak agreed with me. Sorry for disagreeing, I should just be bandwagonning, my bad for making things so difficult.

only twisted said he thought it was a spew.. freak simply said he didn't think checking the flop was bad and i think he was primarily replying to myths post

btw... if you know it is spew vs this specific player why did you even post this hand? and why didn't you c/f the flop?

On May 12 2008 17:53 Loco wrote: why do i get the feeling that everything I have said to explain my thought process and my read on the player has just been totally ignored by some of you guys? yes its a spew. and im not the only one thinking it is. even twisted/freak agreed with me. Sorry for disagreeing, I should just be bandwagonning, my bad for making things so difficult.

Did you read my last post? If you disagree with it, tell me how my reasoning is flawed.

sorry grass i wasnt replying to you in that post but to circa. I'll reply to your post soon.

circa; freak told me on msn "for what it's worth I think you are right"

But yes you are totally right I shouldn'tve made this thread in the first place, my bad. I made it right after the hand was played and didnt have enough time to think about it, but its a clear check fold after giving it some thought.

sorry everyone