One of the notable hands.

The EV of calling a preflop 4 bet is based on the EV of going with your hand postflop, which is based on your average postflop equity and the % of flops your going with your hand on.

I'm not sure how to do the calculation for a 3 way pot but for a hu pot, 160 blinds deep with AsTsKhQ vs AAxx a raise to 4bb a 3 bet to 14bb and a 4 bet to 47bb it looks something like this

.53 * 342.7 - 113 = 68.631

68.631 * .5 = 34.3155 so 34.3155 is > then the 33 bb 4 bet hes calling which makes it +EV

This is based on him having an average flop equity of 53% when he calls and having enough equity to go with it 50% of the time on the flop. This doesn't take into account that your folding the flop incorrectly far more often then he is, which is a very big factor.


Now in this 3 way pot, I'm not entirely sure how to calculate how him flatting 1000$ more or it being a 3 way pot factors in, I do know that him being 160bb vs AAxx and only 100bb vs the 3rd player is definitely working against him.

On March 17 2012 00:21 DaEm0niCuS wrote: If your opponent shows AA in NLHE and you have AK are you calling his 4 bet pre?

if I have AK no, if I have KQs, ATs, KTo, AKo, AQo and QTo, I am


If your calling a 4 bet with any of those hands when you know your opponent has AA, you are making a mistake. You would need an average flop equity of 40% when you go with it, and this isn't even close to reality. Did you mean to say if he has? if so why even mention it.

On March 18 2012 00:43 DaEm0niCuS wrote: If your calling a 4 bet with any of those hands when you know your opponent has AA, you are making a mistake. You would need an average flop equity of 40% when you go with it, and this isn't even close to reality. Did you mean to say if he has? if so why even mention it.

but in PLO we dont have one of those hands, we have all of them at the same time

What? why would you responded to a NLHE statement with a PLO response without and hint of it at all. Is that what you did? I'm confused.

well u made a NLHE comparison, would we call AK if opp has AA

but in PLO we cant be 95-5 pf so I made that point

If you know your dominated 100bb deep in either game, you should not be calling the 4 bet.

in NLHE that is obviously true, at PLO I would think not tho thats just my opinion based on observation

In HU it's less of a mistake/even ish, in 6 max it's almost always a mistake to call a 4 bet with Axxx vs AAxx, which is really the only dominated situation your ever going to know your in with decent certainty.

On March 18 2012 02:18 DaEm0niCuS wrote: If you know your dominated 100bb deep in either game, you should not be calling the 4 bet.

This is not true at all ...
especially in plo.

i would still recomend you to find that topic on 2+2 . Very many discussion and good math behind calling 4bets in PLO.

And im pretty sure remembering that math there this call vs AAxx is not mistake BUT diffrence from that topic and this hand is:
a) we are not a 3betor so we need to call more $
b) this 3betor can still raise more


And NLH compression is just pretty usless here.

On March 18 2012 13:09 waga wrote: Show nested quote + On March 18 2012 02:18 DaEm0niCuS wrote: If you know your dominated 100bb deep in either game, you should not be calling the 4 bet. This is not true at all ... especially in plo.

Based on what, you saying so? great argument. How about some math to back that up.

On March 18 2012 16:01 RyanKrait wrote: i would still recomend you to find that topic on 2+2 . Very many discussion and good math behind calling 4bets in PLO. And im pretty sure remembering that math there this call vs AAxx is not mistake BUT diffrence from that topic and this hand is: a) we are not a 3betor so we need to call more $ b) this 3betor can still raise more And NLH compression is just pretty usless here.

I looked at that thread. The calculation is.

Average flop equity when going with your hand * total pot size - amount your calling post flop = x

x * percent of flops your going with = y

if y is > z your play is profitable. Where z is the 4 bet amount your calling. Ex: 3bet = 20$, 4bet = 48$ z = 28$

I don't think he has AAxx 100% either

The percentage of time he doesn't have AAxx here is so small it's not really worth factoring in.

I think that's simply wrong, but last time I played higher then 5/10 was probably a year ago and on prima so what do I know. I just find it hard to believe that Terken, who as far as I can remember back in the day had a reputation for being very aggro would only 4bet AAxx here.

I guess it depends on how Joe and MaiseE plays but rumours has in that MaiseE is William Thorson which together with his results seems to indicate that he at least is a very good and probably aggro player. Considering the line up I'd imagine that people would try to play a lot of hands with Joe since he's fairly new at these stakes and therefore it seems fairly likely that Terken suspects MaiseE of being rather light here. Back in the day that'd lead a lot of players to 4bet lightish just to discourage "isolation" 3bets.

Obviously he still has all or almost all the AA combos but I feel that he'll have a few really good rundowns and stuff like AKxx with high cards and such too.

I might obviously be 100% off with my idea about how these games play since I don't really watch them, but I wouldn't put a good aggro player on 90%+ AAxx here.

the fact that joe is utg matters quite a bit in my opinion and makes terkens range significantly tighter, there are good spots to be 4bettin light but this is not really one of them, had joe started the hand as the cutoff I think dusty's arguments would be more valid. Even tho im sure they wanna try to exploit joe as much as possible, attacking his utg range when hes most likely scared money and playin pretty tight is not the way theyre gonna do it, at least not with 100bb stacks. I suck at maths and I cant tell whats the right decisionthere and Im certain I wouldnt fold in the heat of the moment, esp if ive been runnin good (thats stupid but true), but Id say the likelihood of MaiseE 5bettin makes it a close fold.
Interesting spot.

Yea if Joe is like 8% raise UTG or something I'm somewhat confident it is a fold, but I have no idea about that.

that hand is sooo pretty!!

what about his flop shove? is that good?

With those pot odds I don't think he can ever fold+ he wants his opponents to fold. Shoving seems fine.

what a pretty hand