One of the notable hands.

http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/957764

Since I'm basically the only one discussing the hand I thought I would repost it here in an effort to get more views.

there was a topic on 2+2 about calling 4bets in PLO. Google it.

What a great response... Why do I even bother.

lol what i can respond if i dont play PLO you want me to pretend i know?
however i remember there was a topic on 2+2 where one guy run pretty good math behind calling 4bets ( what is basicly you try to do in that hand ).

So first, find it. If it dont help or you dont want to just dont care about my replay and w8 for mipwnya or another PLO specialist.

Well I'm 99.999% sure the play is bad, just wanted to hear some other views.

The hand is too pretty to fold. Besides, it's pretty deep with a guy who'll have aces a lot so it's easy to play against him. If you hit a pair+FD you can get it in comfortably postflop.

The real danger here imo is if Maisee shoves because then we're getting it in pretty bad, and he can shove a pretty wide range there. If he has some type of doublesuited rundown hand he'll have good equity in a 3way-allin. I think because of that this is probably a fold preflop, but like I said; the hand is just so pretty .

PLO is a cool game, people can have millions of hands played and still make the same mistakes over and over without realizing it.

On March 17 2012 00:21 DaEm0niCuS wrote: However when he puts this money in it's post flop and he likely has a much higher equity then 34% when deciding to go with it. lets be generous and give him 48%.

really? if, as you say:

On March 16 2012 23:30 DaEm0niCuS wrote: his opponent is folding maybe 2% of the time

then we have much much more equity when we get it in, since we get it in on all straight, trips, 2pair, oesd+FD, pair+FD+gutshot boards
if we have 35% but we fold the bad boards for us and our opponent doesnt fold the one we have 60+% we print money afaik

On March 17 2012 00:21 DaEm0niCuS wrote: If your opponent shows AA in NLHE and you have AK are you calling his 4 bet pre?

if I have AK no, if I have KQs, ATs, KTo, AKo, AQo and QTo, I am

The EV of calling a preflop 4 bet is based on the EV of going with your hand postflop, which is based on your average postflop equity and the % of flops your going with your hand on.

I'm not sure how to do the calculation for a 3 way pot but for a hu pot, 160 blinds deep with AsTsKhQ vs AAxx a raise to 4bb a 3 bet to 14bb and a 4 bet to 47bb it looks something like this

.53 * 342.7 - 113 = 68.631

68.631 * .5 = 34.3155 so 34.3155 is > then the 33 bb 4 bet hes calling which makes it +EV

This is based on him having an average flop equity of 53% when he calls and having enough equity to go with it 50% of the time on the flop. This doesn't take into account that your folding the flop incorrectly far more often then he is, which is a very big factor.


Now in this 3 way pot, I'm not entirely sure how to calculate how him flatting 1000$ more or it being a 3 way pot factors in, I do know that him being 160bb vs AAxx and only 100bb vs the 3rd player is definitely working against him.

On March 17 2012 00:21 DaEm0niCuS wrote: If your opponent shows AA in NLHE and you have AK are you calling his 4 bet pre?

if I have AK no, if I have KQs, ATs, KTo, AKo, AQo and QTo, I am


If your calling a 4 bet with any of those hands when you know your opponent has AA, you are making a mistake. You would need an average flop equity of 40% when you go with it, and this isn't even close to reality. Did you mean to say if he has? if so why even mention it.

On March 18 2012 00:43 DaEm0niCuS wrote: If your calling a 4 bet with any of those hands when you know your opponent has AA, you are making a mistake. You would need an average flop equity of 40% when you go with it, and this isn't even close to reality. Did you mean to say if he has? if so why even mention it.

but in PLO we dont have one of those hands, we have all of them at the same time

What? why would you responded to a NLHE statement with a PLO response without and hint of it at all. Is that what you did? I'm confused.

well u made a NLHE comparison, would we call AK if opp has AA

but in PLO we cant be 95-5 pf so I made that point

If you know your dominated 100bb deep in either game, you should not be calling the 4 bet.

in NLHE that is obviously true, at PLO I would think not tho thats just my opinion based on observation

In HU it's less of a mistake/even ish, in 6 max it's almost always a mistake to call a 4 bet with Axxx vs AAxx, which is really the only dominated situation your ever going to know your in with decent certainty.

On March 18 2012 02:18 DaEm0niCuS wrote: If you know your dominated 100bb deep in either game, you should not be calling the 4 bet.

This is not true at all ...
especially in plo.

i would still recomend you to find that topic on 2+2 . Very many discussion and good math behind calling 4bets in PLO.

And im pretty sure remembering that math there this call vs AAxx is not mistake BUT diffrence from that topic and this hand is:
a) we are not a 3betor so we need to call more $
b) this 3betor can still raise more


And NLH compression is just pretty usless here.

On March 18 2012 13:09 waga wrote: Show nested quote + On March 18 2012 02:18 DaEm0niCuS wrote: If you know your dominated 100bb deep in either game, you should not be calling the 4 bet. This is not true at all ... especially in plo.

Based on what, you saying so? great argument. How about some math to back that up.

On March 18 2012 16:01 RyanKrait wrote: i would still recomend you to find that topic on 2+2 . Very many discussion and good math behind calling 4bets in PLO. And im pretty sure remembering that math there this call vs AAxx is not mistake BUT diffrence from that topic and this hand is: a) we are not a 3betor so we need to call more $ b) this 3betor can still raise more And NLH compression is just pretty usless here.

I looked at that thread. The calculation is.

Average flop equity when going with your hand * total pot size - amount your calling post flop = x

x * percent of flops your going with = y

if y is > z your play is profitable. Where z is the 4 bet amount your calling. Ex: 3bet = 20$, 4bet = 48$ z = 28$

I don't think he has AAxx 100% either