2/5 Live JJ

wat size do you like?

$110

eh. $125

you are 60bb deep (straddle) and you've got an overpair ...

btw again , 60bb effective , his range make no sense at all
"range is fairly strong prob TT+ AQs+ AKo"
he 3bet/call those hands

I think most online players are discounting how tight live plays. Do you flat 10% of your stack preflop with hands like 78s 22-99? The arrogance is extremely annoying as if all live players are fish, and all online players are god, I mentioned that villain is a solid player who was capable of hand reading and hero calling. If this was against a fish/whale it wouldn't even be a thread.

@JC, I imagine you're betting 125 (larger) and stacking off here?

I've played hundreds maybe thousands of hours live (2/5 to 10/20) so I'm quite confident I'm aware of their range ...
You mentioned that vilain is a solid player , and a solid player 3bet/call TT+ AQ+ 60bb deep

So give me your opinion on his flatting range

AJs JTs QJs KQs 66-99 (maybe TT) AA and random spew

so don't really think about his range too much...I would tank a bit so it would look like i'm thinking about his range...but all i can think about is how much i'm going to bet on the flop/turn...or bet flop huge and shove turn.. oh the possibilities.


if he raises flop then I feel we can have some sort of discussion. but if he call/call flop/turn this is an easy bet/bet/jam on relatively non-gay cards.

So I tank on the flop, cause all the sudden I feel as though my preflop raise to $60 really forced me to face a stronger range. I still don't think there's any other option. Also the button calling and the fish who limped folding is a bad beat in itself.

I cbet $65, and this is where it gets weird cause I feel as though I am up QQ quite heavily and want to fold for cheap, but I also felt that I was pretty much going broke here and didn't think I could fold my hand, so I wanted to bet something smaller in order to induce.

What bet size do you prefer and why?

On March 12 2012 16:19 waga wrote: AJs JTs QJs KQs 66-99 (maybe TT) AA and random spew

I like this range, discounting AA though, and really discounting random spew (but eliminating neither), and I don't think he is calling 10% of his stack to setmine 66-88 but he might not be able to fold 99+ ( i know somewhat arbitrary cutoff, but at one point you have to make one)

Depends...do you know if he tends to peel flops light then fold turns often? then i bomb the flop like 140+ and bet turn like 200 or something like that but if he tends to have a pretty static range then i'd prob just 115/200-250 and ship rest in on river. and prob check/fold 3h/7h turns although he's prob owning us and bluffing us a fair amount it's prob not a very profitable call down unless we have some superstar read/live tell to give us additional information.

i don't get it.
bet flop.

65 seems silly. induce for real reasons, not because you're not sure how to size.

Do you ever not get this in?
The one scenario I can think of is you bet 125, he raises to 265, and he's really really fucking old.

edit: my post comes across as kind of assholish, lol. Sorry. Trying again:
I think the range analysis is kinda silly.


Basically, what else are you going to do with such a low psr?
Check and make an elaborate thread about bluffcatching down vs a guy you don't know that much about, that's going to be full of random useless information like how he bet turn slightly faster/slower/larger/smaller than some other time he had aces? It's good to pay attention to these things, but I think you know what I mean.
I don't like inducing here because I just don't see random guys spaz with QJ enough without reads that would make the thread irrelevant.

Cosmo clearly has the right idea. Bet and play the rest of the hand as best you can. This isn't a super complicated spot.

He's solid but capable of weird hero-y stuff. Our std is already to bet. This is a great reason to not randomly fps.

So everyone is in agreement if you get raised here you just jam flop?

On March 12 2012 14:13 mnj wrote: I think most online players are discounting how tight live plays. Do you flat 10% of your stack preflop with hands like 78s 22-99? The arrogance is extremely annoying as if all live players are fish, and all online players are god, I mentioned that villain is a solid player who was capable of hand reading and hero calling. If this was against a fish/whale it wouldn't even be a thread. @JC, I imagine you're betting 125 (larger) and stacking off here?

Get a Fkn clue mate. Villain can't be solid not 3 betting those hands.

O and what everybody else said

On March 12 2012 23:18 mnj wrote: Show nested quote + On March 12 2012 16:19 waga wrote: AJs JTs QJs KQs 66-99 (maybe TT) AA and random spew I like this range, discounting AA though, and really discounting random spew (but eliminating neither), and I don't think he is calling 10% of his stack to setmine 66-88 but he might not be able to fold 99+ ( i know somewhat arbitrary cutoff, but at one point you have to make one)

With the straddler and two limpers his button flatting range can and should be pretty wide as villain is expecting at least a four way pot. So you should be betting flop every time getting instafolds from about half his range, while he'll have enough draws to make stacking off OK. There are some truly nitty players where bet/folding and even check/folding are best. Against some more aggressive players I'll mix it up with a check/shove. I really don't like check/call or betting small though cuz half the deck is a bad turn card for you. Your hand is not strong enough to induce bluffs or give free cards.

sounds good,

in villains shoes 500 dollars deep everyone likes flatting 60 dollars here with a wide range?

It's terrible. You invest a lot of your stack and the limpers can reshove. I'm pretty sure a lot of guys at the micros understand this (even if they still click the wrong buttons).

To be utterly anal about the reasoning, since you're asking...basic poker theory would dictate we only flat with a wide range here if we can take it away post a lot, enough to overcome our equity disadvantage. Both of the things I mentioned (low PSR for all players, chance of not seeing a flop) severely limit this. It's one of those light money on fire spots where even if the raiser is c/fing a ton, I expect good players to still want hands.

Actually wobbly's comment is pretty interesting. I think solid live regs can be on the nitty side and not 3bet though.
60bb 3betting a 6bb iso live.
Do you play nosebleeds live, wobbly? I expect this kind of thing to be pretty standard at a live table with good online players battling eachother.

To not pot commit you have to use online sizings. Like 145/60 3bet. I'd be concerned about the quality of your flop decisions with 87s, because live players flat more (so your 3bet is less good to begin with). Ie, they might not get it in pre with all the hands you expect them to, electing to flat->be unpredictable and/or stick post.
This is similar to a tourney spot, so live players can fold here, but not as much as online.

Maybe you can comment. I can only see this being good against a few players, otherwise on the spewy side.


edit:" I think solid live regs can be on the nitty side and not 3bet though."
lol. Bwahahha...
Ok, fine. I'm a nit here and don't know how not to be. Help me.

Your reads are insufficient. " Called me with A high and is solid " isn't enough information to make a good decision on this flop. If you've been involved in a spot where he called you with A high, and a spot where you called him with A high you should know a LOT more about him than what you provided.

65 is pretty awful sizing regardless, you're giving him like 3.5-1 on a call on a board where there are going to be a ton of horrible turn cards and we're OOP. Bet out 120ish and go from there.