Live Hand

Hey guys, I've never posted up a thread before in the hands section, more of a lurker, and since I live in Los Angeles, I only play live. Also, this is in a 5/5 game, but since I'm not good and this is a live hand, I decided to post in low-stakes. Anyway, this is a home game, pretty classy joint, I sat down, bought in for $500, and on the very first hand flopped bottom set and came up $300. A few hands later, I looks down @ Black Kings in MP.

2 Limpers (you can already see the potential in this game), I make it 25, guy in the sb flats, the other guys fold. I have no reads on him except that he's a young white kid with a Laker cap (not really a read but I'll throw that in for effect) and he also has about 800 in front of him, slightly less. I think he thinks I'm bad/inexperienced because I have shaky hands naturally and everyone at the table was poking fun from the 66 hand :D

Flop comes down Jd8d5d. He checks, I bet 50, he raises to 125. First question is, early in the game with no reads, should I just check behind on this board or was betting +ev, and second should I be raising/calling/folding and why.

I elected to call after tanking a bit. I think at the time I put him on either a set, Ad+pair, made flush, or air. Unfortunately, I have to admit I really have much of a plan (which is obv bad) but I just felt like call was the best option and to just re-evaluate. Turn was a 2d. He immediately leads out for $100. The bet is less than a 1/3 of pot which seems really weak, but this could mean that Ad+pair got there. Third question is where do I go from here?

Thoughts appreciated, sorry if this is more standard on any street than I think.

live is extremely passive. i think making it even bigger 30 preflop, and near potting the flop (which you did) is the best line.

i think 90% of the player pool is extremely happy with calling down with straight draws, flush draws, top pairs.

i think his c/r range is extreemly strong

i think folding flop is by far the best play

Raise larger preflop. If they are limping, it doesn't really matter how much you raise, if they had the intention of calling a raise they would call a larger one. I would raise like 35-40. On the flop, you definitely c-bet for value with the intention of betting certain cards.

The raise puts you in an awkward spot but as he is a younger kid, he can be less nitty/taggy than the average live player. That means he can be raising you with worse.

I would elect to call the re-raise. On the 2d, I would fold because I don't think he's really betting as a bluff and you beat no value hands.

If you think it's weak, you have to ask yourself, can I get him to fold weaker/flushes and sets? Should I turn my KK into a bluff here? Cause I really dont think he'd do that with a hand worse than yours.

I remember Baluga discussing this kind of spot somewhere, specifically mentioning that even Krantz is unlikely to get out of line without very strong holdings on a monotone flop. You're never that far ahead and when you are behind, you're without equity. You're also deep. Fold and don't think too hard about it.

Seems like the best logic goes to just folding the flop, it is obviously a wb/sa spot, thanks guys. If it's 100bb it's probably a diff story tho?

I agree raise more pre. I like the line you took actually with position peeling the flop. I'd likely play it the same. Sometime its live and you can do some crazy shit but this looks standard. Might soulread fold the flop but i dont think calling is bad his raise is basically a m/r.

So what do you do when he leads turn for 100

I would go with what tensai said at that point on this turn. Might call though he doesn't have to be bluffing much at all and a read on his river tendency helps. just always kinda hard to call down on 4 flush boards without the suit so him stealing the initiative on the flop is valueable; kinda depends if you think he realizes this and would exploit it or not you know

a huge mistake a lot of players dont do in these live games is push their preflop equity, i'd recommend experimenting with opening sizes, try opening to 30, if they call, try 40, if they are still calling try 60, find out what what their limit is, cause if you made it 60-70 pre, postflop is super trivial / almost non existant - i cringed at the hand when i read you made it 25 pre (this is a fairly big mistake) , because of that and that alone, the hand is extremely difficult

On April 21 2012 09:56 TalentedTom wrote: a huge mistake a lot of players dont do in these live games is push their preflop equity, i'd recommend experimenting with opening sizes, try opening to 30, if they call, try 40, if they are still calling try 60, find out what what their limit is, cause if you made it 60-70 pre, postflop is super trivial / almost non existant - i cringed at the hand when i read you made it 25 pre (this is a fairly big mistake) , because of that and that alone, the hand is extremely difficult

I get that 25 is too small, but 60 or 70 seems a bit extreme. I mean that's 14x on the first raise, that's like a standard 3bet size. Not trying to escape the point that 35 would have been much better than 25 tho, point well taken.

On April 21 2012 07:08 traxamillion wrote: I would go with what tensai said at that point on this turn. Might call though he doesn't have to be bluffing much at all and a read on his river tendency helps. just always kinda hard to call down on 4 flush boards without the suit so him stealing the initiative on the flop is valueable; kinda depends if you think he realizes this and would exploit it or not you know

Well I ended up insta-raising his lead to 300 just because it felt so weak. At the time it was much more of a gut thing than like analyzing ranges and making a calculated move, but in retrospect I think it might have been a good play. Hard to tell tho because he folded so maybe I'm being results oriented. I just feel like based on the range he has on the flop w/ his c/r (sets, made flushes, Ad+draw, air) he was going to have to fold a lot of the time, probably enough that it was in fact a good play. Especially considering the fact that my hand at this point looks like it has the Ad if he doesn't have it, or I'm just bluffing which he can't really assume. I do think the flop is a fold tho and I should def make it more pre, so I got lucky. Yay

On April 22 2012 02:47 soberstone wrote: Show nested quote + On April 21 2012 09:56 TalentedTom wrote: a huge mistake a lot of players dont do in these live games is push their preflop equity, i'd recommend experimenting with opening sizes, try opening to 30, if they call, try 40, if they are still calling try 60, find out what what their limit is, cause if you made it 60-70 pre, postflop is super trivial / almost non existant - i cringed at the hand when i read you made it 25 pre (this is a fairly big mistake) , because of that and that alone, the hand is extremely difficult I get that 25 is too small, but 60 or 70 seems a bit extreme. I mean that's 14x on the first raise, that's like a standard 3bet size. Not trying to escape the point that 35 would have been much better than 25 tho, point well taken.

I once played live games about 25 days straight, guys take it VERY personally when your constatnly raising their limps - Poker is trial and error, next time you play live, isolate with any 2 to 40bb, see what happens, then 45, 50 etc.. try different sizes and see how people react to it - its not even close extreme, ive played in many games where u can raise limps to 10-20bb and people still call

On April 22 2012 16:08 TalentedTom wrote: I once played live games about 25 days straight

did you tell phil laak that his record is a joke?

lol, i mean approx 10-12h a day for 25 days

I would include JT, QJ, KJ and AJ in his range too, at least 50% of the time vs an unknown with a lakers hat who laughed at my shaking hands.

On the turn there is nothing wrong with just folding, but his weak bet might induce me to call and play a river, where you might get a check and cheap showdown vs a naked jack. I'd be wary of trying to push him off a low flush after he was just poking fun at me, and with no other reads.

On April 22 2012 16:08 TalentedTom wrote: Show nested quote + On April 22 2012 02:47 soberstone wrote:   On April 21 2012 09:56 TalentedTom wrote: a huge mistake a lot of players dont do in these live games is push their preflop equity, i'd recommend experimenting with opening sizes, try opening to 30, if they call, try 40, if they are still calling try 60, find out what what their limit is, cause if you made it 60-70 pre, postflop is super trivial / almost non existant - i cringed at the hand when i read you made it 25 pre (this is a fairly big mistake) , because of that and that alone, the hand is extremely difficult I get that 25 is too small, but 60 or 70 seems a bit extreme. I mean that's 14x on the first raise, that's like a standard 3bet size. Not trying to escape the point that 35 would have been much better than 25 tho, point well taken. I once played live games about 25 days straight, guys take it VERY personally when your constatnly raising their limps - Poker is trial and error, next time you play live, isolate with any 2 to 40bb, see what happens, then 45, 50 etc.. try different sizes and see how people react to it - its not even close extreme, ive played in many games where u can raise limps to 10-20bb and people still call

Ok you obviously didn't mean 40bb...

But ya Tom is right, if these guys are going to try and limp and see cheap flops with shit, you dont want a flop going multiway with JJ, AKo, or even KK, so you have to increase your raise size to compensate. slowly the limpers will drop off, then ideally you'll get to the flop with 1-2 other people vs whom you often have the dominant hand, and can take extra pots down with cbets etc.

In my live experience my std open is like 6-10bb depending on the table and limpers.

Also it goes against what is taught here at LP for online games, but the converse adjustment when playing live is that when you have good drawing mw hands like AXs, you can see a flop for cheap and be happy that the pot is 5 ways to the flop.

On April 22 2012 16:08 TalentedTom wrote: Show nested quote + On April 22 2012 02:47 soberstone wrote:   On April 21 2012 09:56 TalentedTom wrote: a huge mistake a lot of players dont do in these live games is push their preflop equity, i'd recommend experimenting with opening sizes, try opening to 30, if they call, try 40, if they are still calling try 60, find out what what their limit is, cause if you made it 60-70 pre, postflop is super trivial / almost non existant - i cringed at the hand when i read you made it 25 pre (this is a fairly big mistake) , because of that and that alone, the hand is extremely difficult I get that 25 is too small, but 60 or 70 seems a bit extreme. I mean that's 14x on the first raise, that's like a standard 3bet size. Not trying to escape the point that 35 would have been much better than 25 tho, point well taken. I once played live games about 25 days straight, guys take it VERY personally when your constatnly raising their limps - Poker is trial and error, next time you play live, isolate with any 2 to 40bb, see what happens, then 45, 50 etc.. try different sizes and see how people react to it - its not even close extreme, ive played in many games where u can raise limps to 10-20bb and people still call

yea this is prob one of best advice around for live play for general thinking...

Just got done with a 7 day marathon live session myself...people take this game so fucking personally it's so funny