Shoving Everything in the Small Blind

Situation: ITM fairly deep in the money and are about mid field.

Action is folded around to you and you are in the small blind. At what Xbb is shoving everything profitable given that antes are generally equal to the bb in total in the late game.

Let me know what is best LP!

9-11bb's depending on who you're shoving into.

Probably around 2bb vs most ppl
Shoving 72o at 9bb is almost always gonna be bad

no shoving 72 at 9 bb is +ev vs most people

I invite u to play hyper HUsngs with me then

On December 07 2011 10:29 player999 wrote:

I might be retarded but is it saying I should push A2s for 20+ bb? that seems pretty bad

no, its saying that doing that is not -EV, but also probably not the best option either

It means that if you were to shove vs 1 person in a SB vs BB scenerio that you would show more of profit in doing so at 20bbs than folding. Makes sense, you have an ace and that's strong as fuck.

it is nash so it says that if you want to shove 20BB+ 56s profitably you must also shove AA

On December 07 2011 12:03 BooBoo wrote: it is nash so it says that if you want to shove 20BB+ 56s profitably you must also shove AA

yeah there's that too, thats why you must actually consider most of those values to be lower if you're giving yourself a realistic range

On December 07 2011 10:29 player999 wrote:

with antes at a 9 handed table you can shove like 80% with 8bb.

but yea you shouldnt be shoving 100% til ~2.5bb

Useful table but how was it derived?

maths critterer, maths

On December 07 2011 12:25 Daut wrote: Show nested quote + On December 07 2011 10:29 player999 wrote: with antes at a 9 handed table you can shove like 80% with 8bb. but yea you shouldnt be shoving 100% til ~2.5bb

most ppl dont realize how bad shoving the worst hands really is, and just shove anything at 10bb

nice table it helps a lot
hope theres a table sutiable for BTN shoving blinds

That table is for non antes. We are talking late in a tournament where there are antes if you do the math for true bb its fine but most people dont. Remember this fish dont blindly follow a chart without knowing why

On December 07 2011 13:28 Critterer wrote: Useful table but how was it derived?

Basic math mate

I guess i shoulda made my question clearer lol, i know it was derived by math but what is the math that results in the table?

for example: We have 86o in the small blind, nash equilibrium says 7.0bb to shove but how do you get this figure?

fold equity + pot equity when you get called in some sort of wild math

On December 07 2011 10:28 player999 wrote: I invite u to play hyper HUsngs with me then

i play fish bro

Isnt this table "away from bubble" equilibrium? Because when there is ICM calling ranges become tighter and pushing ranges become wider.

On December 08 2011 17:27 Target-x17 wrote: Show nested quote + On December 07 2011 10:28 player999 wrote: I invite u to play hyper HUsngs with me then i play fish bro

You're prob gonna lose money against the worst of fishes shoving 100% at 9bb

Nash estimates the caller has a huuuuuge range, just saying.

On December 08 2011 16:52 Critterer wrote: I guess i shoulda made my question clearer lol, i know it was derived by math but what is the math that results in the table? for example: We have 86o in the small blind, nash equilibrium says 7.0bb to shove but how do you get this figure?

Theory called Game theory

On December 09 2011 11:21 Carreira wrote: Nash estimates the caller has a huuuuuge range, just saying.

nash doesnt take into account calling ranges

On December 09 2011 13:13 BooBoo wrote: Show nested quote + On December 09 2011 11:21 Carreira wrote: Nash estimates the caller has a huuuuuge range, just saying. nash do not take into account calling ranges

It takes the optimal calling range into account.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but going with game theory is best if you don't know much about your opponent, your opponent is better than you, or your opponent will go with optimal plays according to game theory.

heads up shoving range should be significantly tighter than sb vs bb 9 handed with ante, no? I definitely don't push 100% with 9 bb even in a tourney though, but I do prolly shove 75% or so of hands.

It takes the optimal calling range into account.

Nope, it doesnt. What is optimal calling range? Think deeply about it and here is a chance you can get game theory.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but going with game theory is best if you don't know much about your opponent, your opponent is better than you, or your opponent will go with optimal plays according to game theory.

only last option is right

It's more of an unexploitable strategy.

However this doesn't mean you can't adjust your shoving range accordingly if your opponent is calling super light or folding too much.

But remember tourneys are not identical to HU s&g..

On December 09 2011 16:48 BooBoo wrote: Show nested quote + It takes the optimal calling range into account. Nope, it doesnt. What is optimal calling range? Think deeply about it and here is a chance you can get game theory.   Correct me if I'm wrong, but going with game theory is best if you don't know much about your opponent, your opponent is better than you, or your opponent will go with optimal plays according to game theory. only last option is right

Yes, it takes the optimal calling range afaik, as if he could see your cards, so if you shove 65s he calls 75o

On December 10 2011 00:47 player999 wrote: Show nested quote + On December 09 2011 16:48 BooBoo wrote:   It takes the optimal calling range into account. Nope, it doesnt. What is optimal calling range? Think deeply about it and here is a chance you can get game theory.   Correct me if I'm wrong, but going with game theory is best if you don't know much about your opponent, your opponent is better than you, or your opponent will go with optimal plays according to game theory. only last option is right Yes, it takes the optimal calling range afaik, as if he could see your cards, so if you shove 65s he calls 75o

you do not know anything about nash imo

lol wtf BooBoo? Stop being a pretentious bag with 1-line replies and explain what we "all don't know".

I always assumed this chart assumes that our hand is actually face-up, meaning yes, he is calling optimally.

optimal only vs. nash shoving ranges

EV0 or better vs any other range (vs nash ev0 also) most frequently (in practise) far away of the most +ev calling ranges

so the calling range is based on the pushing range and the pushing range is based on the calling range? egg or chicken paradox?

that makes 0 sense

This is my most responded to posts yet. #winning : )

Thanks guys, looks good to me. Player999 I'll remember what you say about people not realizing how bad shoving with the worst hand is, considering I just lost a bunch of hu sngs last night : )

On December 10 2011 13:57 player999 wrote: so the calling range is based on the pushing range and the pushing range is based on the calling range? egg or chicken paradox? that makes 0 sense

this is game theory...

for example (numbers are not correct)
player1 one shoves 50%
player 2 calls 45%

player one adjusts to calling range 45% and shoves 40%
player 2 adjusts and calls 35%

.
.
.

and when players cant adjust anymore (EV 0) for both it is called nash equilibrium. When one of players deflect of nash (calls or shoves wider or tigther), the second players automatically gains.

nash calculator finds ranges for shoving/calling that are most unexploitable. if you detour away from the nash range you can be exploited by a different range. its kind of confusing to calculate, but there is a program that does it for you.

http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html

On December 09 2011 09:35 player999 wrote: Show nested quote + On December 08 2011 17:27 Target-x17 wrote:   On December 07 2011 10:28 player999 wrote: I invite u to play hyper HUsngs with me then i play fish bro You're prob gonna lose money against the worst of fishes shoving 100% at 9bb

fuck...

If you didn't have insane results I'd probably defy you at some level...

One point though, your answers towards target-x17 seem to imply that your hyper hu sng sb/bb shoving range @9bb is the same as it is in a 1000man mtt fullring?

Is that correct?

I'd logically imagine ranges are much tighter at the hu? (without any background whatsoever in hyper hu, but just imagining since it's hu...other players at the table don't gain from your nittiness (as the other 7 in fullring would))

fwiw I'm shoving very close to 100% @7-8bb, obv a bit dependent on opponent..

On December 13 2011 11:01 Hjorturkall wrote: Show nested quote + On December 09 2011 09:35 player999 wrote:   On December 08 2011 17:27 Target-x17 wrote:   On December 07 2011 10:28 player999 wrote: I invite u to play hyper HUsngs with me then i play fish bro You're prob gonna lose money against the worst of fishes shoving 100% at 9bb fuck... If you didn't have insane results I'd probably defy you at some level... One point though, your answers towards target-x17 seem to imply that your hyper hu sng sb/bb shoving range @9bb is the same as it is in a 1000man mtt fullring? Is that correct? I'd logically imagine ranges are much tighter at the hu? (without any background whatsoever in hyper hu, but just imagining since it's hu...other players at the table don't gain from your nittiness (as the other 7 in fullring would)) fwiw I'm shoving very close to 100% @7-8bb, obv a bit dependent on opponent..

That equilibrium play table he posted is completely irrelevant because it is
a) for HU, while the op is asking about mtt when we are in-money
b) does not include antes which is a huge deal.

Shoving 100% @7-8bb effective sounds about right if there are antes and you don't have an image of a maniac.

On December 13 2011 11:24 pluzich wrote: Show nested quote + On December 13 2011 11:01 Hjorturkall wrote:   On December 09 2011 09:35 player999 wrote:   On December 08 2011 17:27 Target-x17 wrote:   On December 07 2011 10:28 player999 wrote: I invite u to play hyper HUsngs with me then i play fish bro You're prob gonna lose money against the worst of fishes shoving 100% at 9bb fuck... If you didn't have insane results I'd probably defy you at some level... One point though, your answers towards target-x17 seem to imply that your hyper hu sng sb/bb shoving range @9bb is the same as it is in a 1000man mtt fullring? Is that correct? I'd logically imagine ranges are much tighter at the hu? (without any background whatsoever in hyper hu, but just imagining since it's hu...other players at the table don't gain from your nittiness (as the other 7 in fullring would)) fwiw I'm shoving very close to 100% @7-8bb, obv a bit dependent on opponent.. That equilibrium play table he posted is completely irrelevant because it is a) for HU, while the op is asking about mtt when we are in-money b) does not include antes which is a huge deal. Shoving 100% @7-8bb effective sounds about right if there are antes and you don't have an image of a maniac.

when you have 7bb on the SB and it folds around it doesnt matter your image, everyone knows that ur shoving a lot of crap and anyone in the BB will call you really light

On December 13 2011 11:01 Hjorturkall wrote: Show nested quote + On December 09 2011 09:35 player999 wrote:   On December 08 2011 17:27 Target-x17 wrote:   On December 07 2011 10:28 player999 wrote: I invite u to play hyper HUsngs with me then i play fish bro You're prob gonna lose money against the worst of fishes shoving 100% at 9bb fuck... If you didn't have insane results I'd probably defy you at some level... One point though, your answers towards target-x17 seem to imply that your hyper hu sng sb/bb shoving range @9bb is the same as it is in a 1000man mtt fullring? Is that correct? I'd logically imagine ranges are much tighter at the hu? (without any background whatsoever in hyper hu, but just imagining since it's hu...other players at the table don't gain from your nittiness (as the other 7 in fullring would)) fwiw I'm shoving very close to 100% @7-8bb, obv a bit dependent on opponent..

SB x BB the MTT ranges are actually the majority of the time waaay lighter at short stacks

and yes, ofc we are shoving CLOSE to 100% at 7bb, but there is a HUGE difference between shoving 75% and 100%

push folding sb v bb is v standard, understand who is to your left, and your relative hand strength if called. you will force folds sb vs bb about 70%. 30% you will be in a 35% when called if your shipping any two cards. It is considered +ev to ship a2c on 5-15bb sb vs bb, although, situationally, its usually not the "correct" way to play each scenario.

the %'s I used were guesstimations of the %'s from experience as an MTTer. They could be way off, but ya, it does depend on many variables, and shipping a2c sb v bb every hand will just get you owned itlr imo.

In turbos its usually better to ship 8-9bb its usually better then going card dead and having 5 next time around when antes are added

5 bb with antes means your m=2 which is what you really really want to avoid because when u shove u have no fold equity and that's the second worst thing that can happen (1st being busting out of the tourney).

On December 16 2011 17:06 pluzich wrote: 5 bb with antes means your m=2 which is what you really really want to avoid because when u shove u have no fold equity and that's the second worst thing that can happen (1st being busting out of the tourney).

this is not completely true

say it folds to you on button at 500/1k/125 and you have JTo w/ 5k. you shove.

there is now approximately 7500 in the pot. sb has 500 invested and its 4500 to call. 7500:4500 is not enough odds to call with the bottom 50% of hands. something like Q4o is not 35% against your range. in fact i would guess the majority of poker players would fold Q8o here in the sb without thinking. the sb is probably only calling 30-35% of the time.

the bb is supposed to call with 84% of hands. but i wouldnt count on all opponents looking down at J2o or 64o or 62s and making the call. i think you are likely to get called about 70% here.

so assuming the blinds call 30% and 70%, you are getting folds .7*.3=21% of the time. and in some cases it might be even higher (if the sb and bb both have a lot of chips, sb may fold hands as strong as A2o because they dont want to deal with the bb restealing or having a hand)

you do have some fold equity in these spots. having 5-7bb is not a catastrophic situation. hell, losing fold equity is not catastrophic.

suppose you have 3000 at 500/1k/125. now you dont have fold equity because when it gets back to the big blind, he is getting 5500:2k and should be calling with every hand. (note if you have 4k, the bb is getting 6500:3500 and is still folding the bottom 10-20% of hands). anyway, if you have 3k in middle position and you are dealt a hand like T8o, you are likely to get it in about 35%, so you can fold because even though your stack will be 2875 the following hand, you are likely to be 3000/2875 * .35 against an opponents range with that hand. or wait a couple hands until you are not more likely to improve. and then once you put yourself in a reasonable spot to double, if you do double you have fold equity again.

nash says this is the 3bb shoving range for utg2: 40.0%, 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K8o+ Q5s+ Q9o+ J7s+ J9o+ T7s+ T9o 96s+ 86s+ 76s 65s

you dont have to just get it in with any hand at this point and throw in the towel basically. its an error. in fact, this is the 5bb utg1 shoving range: 25.8%, 22+ A2s+ A7o+ K6s+ KTo+ Q8s+ QTo+ J9s+ JTo T9s 98s

so if you have 5bb utg1 with A6o and there are antes its a fold. playing an extreme shortstack is a very precise animal that people are extremely bad at

"so if you have 5bb utg1 with A6o and there are antes its a fold. playing an extreme shortstack is a very precise animal that people are extremely bad at"

you cant be serious

Inspiring post daut. I think I may have alot of improvement to do at tournies

On December 18 2011 05:11 TrK wrote: "so if you have 5bb utg1 with A6o and there are antes its a fold. playing an extreme shortstack is a very precise animal that people are extremely bad at" you cant be serious

lol agreed, "wat"

I respect Daut a lot and he definitely knows a lot more about this than me (and a bunch of other posters). Please elaborate more on the playing shortstack!

Something that's been bugging me is if we need to be shoving more hands in LP in the 'modern' tournament scene because of our fewer chances of shoving on the button / co because of good players opening / shoving ahead of us. We can't expect to have many opportunities to shove in LP so hence we must expand our shoving range if we get one of those chances?

Basically what are our adjustments as a shortstack in a tough / weak field? Should we be tighter in a weak field as there is more opportunities for bad players to make mistakes, or conversely loose as they will be folding and calling incorrectly tight (and this is our edge)?

I can't stress the importance of previous history with your player. One thing I love about poker is how rare it is to see people change. If he's been a tight player I'd ship 10-2s+ occasionally, but ordinarily I'd say q7+ it's about timing. Be logical and appear unpredictable. Be that to be feared. Theyll start folding more. Also I would vary my ship fold ratio by skill level. These guys will generally fold more than call more later on in a tourney. Size of the tournament is a gane changer vs some pop too. IMO

I'm not sure about the q7 part, I think it's closer to 75%.

My stratetgy is @ for up to 9bbs btw. Im kinda high right now. I would shove any with a op with around 20bb at 5-6bb. But not at 30+


3 bb or less I ship any

But anyway can you really use this easily in MTT this way when BvB? There are so many factors - opponents stack size, opponents stats, payout jumps and many many other I would say.
And they say playing by Nash is most successful when the opponent also does it which is not likely the case here.

Other thing, if you put here pushing table, also calling table would be useful