Shoving Everything in the Small Blind - Page 2

On December 07 2011 10:28 player999 wrote: I invite u to play hyper HUsngs with me then

i play fish bro

Isnt this table "away from bubble" equilibrium? Because when there is ICM calling ranges become tighter and pushing ranges become wider.

On December 08 2011 17:27 Target-x17 wrote: Show nested quote + On December 07 2011 10:28 player999 wrote: I invite u to play hyper HUsngs with me then i play fish bro

You're prob gonna lose money against the worst of fishes shoving 100% at 9bb

Nash estimates the caller has a huuuuuge range, just saying.

On December 08 2011 16:52 Critterer wrote: I guess i shoulda made my question clearer lol, i know it was derived by math but what is the math that results in the table? for example: We have 86o in the small blind, nash equilibrium says 7.0bb to shove but how do you get this figure?

Theory called Game theory

On December 09 2011 11:21 Carreira wrote: Nash estimates the caller has a huuuuuge range, just saying.

nash doesnt take into account calling ranges

On December 09 2011 13:13 BooBoo wrote: Show nested quote + On December 09 2011 11:21 Carreira wrote: Nash estimates the caller has a huuuuuge range, just saying. nash do not take into account calling ranges

It takes the optimal calling range into account.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but going with game theory is best if you don't know much about your opponent, your opponent is better than you, or your opponent will go with optimal plays according to game theory.

heads up shoving range should be significantly tighter than sb vs bb 9 handed with ante, no? I definitely don't push 100% with 9 bb even in a tourney though, but I do prolly shove 75% or so of hands.

It takes the optimal calling range into account.

Nope, it doesnt. What is optimal calling range? Think deeply about it and here is a chance you can get game theory.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but going with game theory is best if you don't know much about your opponent, your opponent is better than you, or your opponent will go with optimal plays according to game theory.

only last option is right

It's more of an unexploitable strategy.

However this doesn't mean you can't adjust your shoving range accordingly if your opponent is calling super light or folding too much.

But remember tourneys are not identical to HU s&g..

On December 09 2011 16:48 BooBoo wrote: Show nested quote + It takes the optimal calling range into account. Nope, it doesnt. What is optimal calling range? Think deeply about it and here is a chance you can get game theory.   Correct me if I'm wrong, but going with game theory is best if you don't know much about your opponent, your opponent is better than you, or your opponent will go with optimal plays according to game theory. only last option is right

Yes, it takes the optimal calling range afaik, as if he could see your cards, so if you shove 65s he calls 75o

On December 10 2011 00:47 player999 wrote: Show nested quote + On December 09 2011 16:48 BooBoo wrote:   It takes the optimal calling range into account. Nope, it doesnt. What is optimal calling range? Think deeply about it and here is a chance you can get game theory.   Correct me if I'm wrong, but going with game theory is best if you don't know much about your opponent, your opponent is better than you, or your opponent will go with optimal plays according to game theory. only last option is right Yes, it takes the optimal calling range afaik, as if he could see your cards, so if you shove 65s he calls 75o

you do not know anything about nash imo

lol wtf BooBoo? Stop being a pretentious bag with 1-line replies and explain what we "all don't know".

I always assumed this chart assumes that our hand is actually face-up, meaning yes, he is calling optimally.

optimal only vs. nash shoving ranges

EV0 or better vs any other range (vs nash ev0 also) most frequently (in practise) far away of the most +ev calling ranges

so the calling range is based on the pushing range and the pushing range is based on the calling range? egg or chicken paradox?

that makes 0 sense

This is my most responded to posts yet. #winning : )

Thanks guys, looks good to me. Player999 I'll remember what you say about people not realizing how bad shoving with the worst hand is, considering I just lost a bunch of hu sngs last night : )

On December 10 2011 13:57 player999 wrote: so the calling range is based on the pushing range and the pushing range is based on the calling range? egg or chicken paradox? that makes 0 sense

this is game theory...

for example (numbers are not correct)
player1 one shoves 50%
player 2 calls 45%

player one adjusts to calling range 45% and shoves 40%
player 2 adjusts and calls 35%

.
.
.

and when players cant adjust anymore (EV 0) for both it is called nash equilibrium. When one of players deflect of nash (calls or shoves wider or tigther), the second players automatically gains.

nash calculator finds ranges for shoving/calling that are most unexploitable. if you detour away from the nash range you can be exploited by a different range. its kind of confusing to calculate, but there is a program that does it for you.

http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html

On December 09 2011 09:35 player999 wrote: Show nested quote + On December 08 2011 17:27 Target-x17 wrote:   On December 07 2011 10:28 player999 wrote: I invite u to play hyper HUsngs with me then i play fish bro You're prob gonna lose money against the worst of fishes shoving 100% at 9bb

fuck...

If you didn't have insane results I'd probably defy you at some level...

One point though, your answers towards target-x17 seem to imply that your hyper hu sng sb/bb shoving range @9bb is the same as it is in a 1000man mtt fullring?

Is that correct?

I'd logically imagine ranges are much tighter at the hu? (without any background whatsoever in hyper hu, but just imagining since it's hu...other players at the table don't gain from your nittiness (as the other 7 in fullring would))

fwiw I'm shoving very close to 100% @7-8bb, obv a bit dependent on opponent..