nl100 wtf line

Villain is olegim.Regarding to stats he cbets 62% and his c/r percentage at river is 8%.Also i do believe that he perceives me as a str8forward.About timings he snap shoved river.What do u think about his range here?

Submitted by : xafies

***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** Poker Stars
$100.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, December 03, 03:18:55 ET 2011
Table Haurak Real Money
Seat 4 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 $108.05 USD - VPIP: 25, PFR: 21, 3B: 9, AF: 3.7, Hands: 1838
Seat 2: Player2 $171.20 USD - VPIP: 55, PFR: 30, 3B: 11, AF: 2.5, Hands: 165
Seat 3: Player3 $118.90 USD - VPIP: 23, PFR: 18, 3B: 8, AF: 2.4, Hands: 4795
Seat 4: Hero $103.00 USD
Seat 5: Player5 $173.20 USD - VPIP: 35, PFR: 20, 3B: 2, AF: 1.7, Hands: 114
Player5 posts small blind [$0.50 USD].
Player1 posts big blind [$1.00 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero [ ]
Player2 folds
Player3 raises [$3.00 USD]
Hero calls [$3.00 USD]
Player5 folds
Player1 folds

Flop (Pot : $7.50)

   
Player3 checks
Hero bets [$4.00 USD]
Player3 calls [$4.00 USD]

Turn (Pot : $15.50)

   
Player3 checks
Hero bets [$9.00 USD]
Player3 calls [$9.00 USD]

River (Pot : $33.50)

   
Player3 checks
Hero bets [$24.00 USD]
Player3 raises [$102.90 USD]
Hero

lol awesome

this hand will make for great discussion, thanks for posting this gem

do you just call him down if he bets the turn and bets the river?

^why is this scenario relevant casinocasino ?
I believe you are bluff catching at this point, how he could get there like this with the hands that beat you is a mindfuck though. A2 makes some sense (not sure he would beshipping this in the current nl100 nitfest,to use the parlance of our times), A10 not much...
I call too much so I'd say fuck it on the spot, but that's my answer to everything
edit : there is always the ol' KQdd too, lol

I fold. =D

On December 03 2011 20:27 SpasticInk wrote: I fold. =D

Looks like the absolute nuts

I lean to call, your turn bet "felt" a little weak to me, so I think he thinks you're weaker than you actually are.

Do you think he's capable of taking this line as a pure bluff? Or value a hand like AK or any flush?

If he's on a lot of tables, the snapshove is scary, if on few tables, it's more bluffy I've noticed.

On December 04 2011 04:05 Mariuslol wrote: I lean to call, your turn bet "felt" a little weak to me, so I think he thinks you're weaker than you actually are. Do you think he's capable of taking this line as a pure bluff? Or value a hand like AK or any flush? If he's on a lot of tables, the snapshove is scary, if on few tables, it's more bluffy I've noticed.

What hands do we beat?

Villain is most likely betting all two pairs and sets, and smaller flushes. Only thing he check calls are like ak or aq with a flush draw, and he's not c/shoving the river with these hands.

U u think villain is going to c/c twice and shove river after villain looks "weak" for barreling 3 Times on hella scary board?
He never has pure air by the river.

If he's bluffing its with a made hand that prob would call if villain looked weak. This is the line of meganuts as in a flopped royal or villain is just mega nuts

usually when a reg does this to me he shows up with the nuts so..

edit: but then again i dont feel like folding FHs

its relevant because if his opponent bet all three streets and hero shoved on the river like he should, stacks go in regardless.

this looks like FPS more then anything, folding here would be silly.

call and take a note, isn't an ez call, but you can gain a lot of information if you call, and of course this hands is so uncomfortable.

should be either AJ / AT or air, not sure if he bluffs here, also its hard to think of a snapshove bluff

On December 04 2011 12:41 casinocasino wrote: its relevant because if his opponent bet all three streets and hero shoved on the river like he should, stacks go in regardless. this looks like FPS more then anything, folding here would be silly.

What exactly does he have that he goes bet bet bet/call? Also, on this particular board he probably checks most of his hands with showdown value since his pure value range is basically non-existent, not realising that by doing so he gives opportunity to get away from coolers like this, so I think this line is relevant only if he's not making a mistake like that, which imo he does.

On December 04 2011 12:45 el_tilon wrote: call and take a note, isn't an ez call, but you can gain a lot of information if you call, and of course this hands is so uncomfortable.

You gain information that he played his nuts in a way that allows you to fold worse but you didnt? On which street does he make an exploitable mistake by showing up with AJ here?

I mean, he'd either have to decide to go c/c c/c c/shove as a pure bluff, c/c with sd value and decide to turn it into a bluff after seeing your turn bet, or has a bigger boat or better. To go bluff he needs to have a rather specific read on you imo, playing like this vs randoms is not the way of a 100NL multitabling reg.

can you elaborate, your post is very complicated to comprehend.

in regards to this question: What exactly does he have that he goes bet bet bet/call?
how do you know he doesent bet bet bet and call it off with a flush or a straight, its nl100 people cant fold those hands on the river.

--- Nuked ---

On December 04 2011 04:05 Mariuslol wrote: I lean to call, your turn bet "felt" a little weak to me, so I think he thinks you're weaker than you actually are. Do you think he's capable of taking this line as a pure bluff? Or value a hand like AK or any flush? If he's on a lot of tables, the snapshove is scary, if on few tables, it's more bluffy I've noticed.

Why does the turn bet "feel weak"? Not disputing but I just don't see why we wouldn't be vbetting turn with this and Ax

he obv floped the royal flush . I am folding the river. No one is raising and check/calling 2 str and then check jam the river as bluff on boards with high cards.

i fold, nobody is bluffing in that spot

On December 04 2011 16:10 casinocasino wrote: can you elaborate, your post is very complicated to comprehend. in regards to this question: What exactly does he have that he goes bet bet bet/call? how do you know he doesent bet bet bet and call it off with a flush or a straight, its nl100 people cant fold those hands on the river.

Well from my experience it's very hard to find someone who's been grinding 50NL-100NL a lot that would go bet bet bet and call off river with less than boat here. With straight he will already be in "fml" mode on the flop and when board pairs will look for a cheap showdown or a fold, with flush he willprobably go for smaller bets here (aiming at ~100bb pot while keeping in straights, trips and lower flushes) and will make room for b/f on the river, only (maybe) going for "proper" value line against spewtards. This makes me believe your point of "we would get it in anyways if he played it well" invalid.
Also, he has just a few possible flushes: couple of Khxh, probably no Qhxh and maybe some connectors, but he might not be that happy to b,b,b with 9 high flush, so with TT here we are much closer to bluffcatching than valueraising if he ever goes bet bet bet.

On December 05 2011 11:51 scriber wrote: he obv floped the royal flush . I am folding the river. No one is raising and check/calling 2 str and then check jam the river as bluff on boards with high cards.

!

This is one of those spots where i think if villian was gonna bluff he would just bet the flop and not get crazy on a paired board.

https://www.pokertableratings.com/replayer/index.php?site=stars&key=1288471567&hash=10691031441

that is a completely different situation

ok, not completely, but wobbly can have more hands than villain here. Villain either has KQdd or A2s

so pretty much exactly the same situation -___-

stop comparing it to wobbly's hand. im not saying it's totally different but saying it's pretty much the same situation is BS. they are deeper, woblly did check every street, it's on friggin nl10k etc... tons of variables that differ and makes it a different situation.

btw I wasn't comparing them, I just thought is was funny

I don't know why villain would be c/c'ing AJ/AT/AA/JJ on this board. Makes me want to call river. I wouldn't be surprised to see KQdd, but I have a real hard time believing he has a boat on the river unless it's A2. I could see him having Ax or like KJxd/QJxd.

It would be really really really nice to have better notes here. Readless I'm calling because there is just so little I expect to lose to and with little to no history I'm not discounting villain being retarded and deciding he can rep the nuts.

this is what I label a near 100% meaningless hand, discussing this hand will not make you a better poker player, calling is fine, folding based on NO read and random HUD stats is .... fun, good luck, this is such a meaningless spot ;-0 i hate hands like this

LOOOOOOOOOOOOL i love you tom

apparently you guys know something i dont, cause this is a turbo snapp call for me

So many replies! Even I (Even I !) thought after reading this hand that it's a call without much thoughts. The first post "lol awesome" just made me more certain.

And, don't know if I am right, but shouldn't we bet more on each street?

To snap callers:
So you think he does this with worse for value? Or do you agree that we are merely bluff catching because the line makes little sense?

On December 09 2011 08:15 lebowski wrote: To snap callers: So you think he does this with worse for value? Or do you agree that we are merely bluff catching because the line makes little sense?

who the fk knows what hes doing this with, how can we possibly make so many assumptions, this guy posts 2 stats which i could care less about and now we are folding boats? seriously?

how does him c-betting 62% of the time have anything to do witht he hand? also who gives a shit about his rivfer CR %?

i didnt even know that stat existed

Tom, dont teach nits not to fold boats.

I wonder why anyone has to be overly critical of other peoples' mistakes,this isn't your son to be disappointed gentlemen. Not even a stubborn stranger. Poor noobs like me or OP never want to start a thread ever again and this forum dies by people jumping on hate bandwagons. Yes, asking the wrong questions and providing irrelevant stats is a noob mistake too. You could argue angry advice> any advice but still I think the whole attitude is what makes my refresh btn on the poker strategy forum seem broken.

on the hand :
we know he is a reg and that he considers OP str8fwd.How hard is it to assume he knows we can have boats and that he knows boats>flushes. He proceeds to c/s river after minimal thought. Relative hand strength here says our hand is a bluff catcher so please anyone who says "lol snap coz boat" answer me how this is a snap call. If it's a call it can't be something other than a fml call (my initial thought was fuck it, call, but I don't understand why it is so easy as some people suggest). How many years ago would regs overplay their hands with stuff like AK/flushes taking weird lines like this? On the other hand I could also say SNAP and pray my spying future villains believe me. =D
Note that I agree this isn't a very important hand, I just find the whole snap thing a bit weird

<3

yea pretty much what lebowski says

I'll go ahead and say that for most straight-forward regs playing against other straight-forward regs, this is a fairly standard fold. I don't ever see this being a random flush shoving for value. It's either a bigger hand than what we have or a reg spazzing out and tryig to bluff, figuring we need a monster to call. Of those two, I don't really see the latter happening all that often without some relevant dynamics. I'd just pitch this hand because of all monsters possible on this board, ours is the weakest. Bottom line, in this spot, against a regular with no relevant history, I am looking for a reason to call, not for a reason to fold. Look at this situation and saying "we have a FH" is pretty meaningless.

As for this hand being unimportant or whatever, I really don't know wtf that's supposed to mean. Yes, you will not be in this specific situation all that often. But you will routinely encounter situations where you have a very strong hand for the board but are facing action that suggests your hand may not be good. The ability to evaluate those types of spots is pretty important because losing 2/3 of a buyin every few days adds up. Say you play NL100 and have 5 of such spots in a month, losing about 60% of your stack each time on a call. That's $300, or 3 buyins. Assuming you are a very solid winner at your stakes and win 3PTBB/100, you need to play 6k hands to make it back. For many people that's at least 2 days of play. That qualifies as significant in my book.

What I will agree with is that it is perfectly possible to be a solid winning player even if you make the wrong decision every time in this spot. In fact, I would wager most regulars do. In fact, it's for that reason that it's fine--you just win it all back in the long-run because you are on the winning end of these coolers.

Another thing I say is that this forum has effectively died since the US players lost their ability to play online. There are far fewer new threads (barely any) and very little solid discussion within those threads. In that context, angry comments and condescending attitude are not doing this forum any favors. Despite what some mods may believe, it's the new players who keep this community running.

very good post phexac!

regarding the hand,i would think about it 2-3 sec at most and then fold given its 100NL and reg is str8forward.
And it really looks like that could be a Royal Flush btw

On September 20 2011 17:31 TheHuHu3 wrote: If Tom says call, you fucking call.

it doesn't feel like we beat any of his value range, considering he raised early position and he's using this stupid ass weirdo line... I dunno

I would guess probably fold unless villain is very very good (which he probably isn't since he's playing low stakes)

People jumping on hate bandwagons isnt very helpful but in this particular case tom did give good advice in explaining how meaningless and irrelevant those stats given in OP are so it has value after all.

Phexac: Im not sure that is the correct way to look at it since for those numbers to be true these decisions need to be 100% wrong, meaning we are beat 100% of the time and since it almost never is this clear cut the figures are likely much lower.

As for the hand itself I kinda like a fold tbh but wouldnt feel horrible if called either.

On December 10 2011 07:45 EvilSky wrote: People jumping on hate bandwagons isnt very helpful but in this particular case tom did give good advice in explaining how meaningless and irrelevant those stats given in OP are so it has value after all. Phexac: Im not sure that is the correct way to look at it since for those numbers to be true these decisions need to be 100% wrong, meaning we are beat 100% of the time and since it almost never is this clear cut the figures are likely much lower. As for the hand itself I kinda like a fold tbh but wouldnt feel horrible if called either.

Obviously, the example is an oversimplification. Basic point is that, with the volume of hands we play online, those oddball spots really add up.

On December 10 2011 07:45 EvilSky wrote: People jumping on hate bandwagons isnt very helpful but in this particular case tom did give good advice in explaining how meaningless and irrelevant those stats given in OP are so it has value after all. Phexac: Im not sure that is the correct way to look at it since for those numbers to be true these decisions need to be 100% wrong, meaning we are beat 100% of the time and since it almost never is this clear cut the figures are likely much lower. As for the hand itself I kinda like a fold tbh but wouldnt feel horrible if called either.

I am excited about any TT advice as anybody else, this thread in isolation isn't too hateful/bashing indeed, but I still think in general this has a lot to do with LP poker discussion forums being inhabited mostly by rolling tumble weeds...
(I can also easily think of about 5-6 B. Leb. quotes that fit well in this post!)

hmm - would you guys perfer if i toned down my posts? i dont re-read what i write, it's just spur of the moment type stuff, nothing is personal ever (so please dont take anything personally). just writing my thoughts objectivley. Just a few things which i really dont like, bad beat posts, and people calling regs "standard regs" or "standard fish" cause taht makes no sence to me - IMO if you find youself calling people you play iwth everyday "standard reg" or you played 1k hands with someone and all you know about them is that they are 20/17 you should cut down the number of tables you play

1: In a funny spot like this I'm just going to fall back on good ol' ranges and combos here. One combination of the royal flush makes the most sense and 6 combos of A2, reducing to say 4 on average since he often folds the offsuit versions pre. Anything else strong would be even more spazzy than a bluff here so I'd feel weirdly justified in calling if I saw a non-royal flush somehow. This is simply not enough combos compared to the chances of seeing Jx with a diamond or similar med/weak strength c/cing hand turned bluff. I'd feel very happy clicking call once I'd thought that stuff through.

2: More on flop.

3: More on turn.

On December 12 2011 00:06 TalentedTom wrote: hmm - would you guys perfer if i toned down my posts? i dont re-read what i write, it's just spur of the moment type stuff, nothing is personal ever (so please dont take anything personally). just writing my thoughts objectivley. Just a few things which i really dont like, bad beat posts, and people calling regs "standard regs" or "standard fish" cause taht makes no sence to me - IMO if you find youself calling people you play iwth everyday "standard reg" or you played 1k hands with someone and all you know about them is that they are 20/17 you should cut down the number of tables you play

I definitely agree that people tend to not do a good job of keeping track of history and identifying relevant aspects of that history. As for the tone of your posts, I know it never really bothered me, but I think in this case a person unfamiliar with this forum or your posts will likely not get where you are coming from. I guess the bottom line here is, since this is LP, certain level of abrasiveness is fine as long as people are pretty clear why.

Still feel it's a call!!

Results?

tom is not only insightful but also hilarious

don't see how anyone could not enjoy his posts

Hey guys thanks for the replies. I know that this hand wasn't very interesting, I only wanted to know how people would react to this situation.Also about stats: I am not a stat guy at all; I closed my eyes and randomly picked two of those, hoping to help lol.
Regarding to reads,I don't know what I should have paid attention to.This line was so odd to me therefore I had no idea how to react.Obviously i had no clue how he plays monotone boards (this could still be irrelevant?). As far as results concerned,he had AJ

If i'm tilted I call here. If i'm not tilted i prob muck here after raging a bit on the inside.

If i'm slightly tilted then i'd probably swear outloud multiple times and fold...unless i'm in tilt level 2. then it's a "FUCK; ASLDJGA;SLDGJSDGJ" then rage jam

AJ is very credible here but just one hand, gay spot snap it

what % of unsuited a2 do you estimate he raises pre; kinda nitty so if hes playing a lot of tables he folds that sometimes? or just never not opening an ace there

On December 12 2011 00:06 TalentedTom wrote: hmm - would you guys perfer if i toned down my posts? i dont re-read what i write, it's just spur of the moment type stuff, nothing is personal ever (so please dont take anything personally). just writing my thoughts objectivley. Just a few things which i really dont like, bad beat posts, and people calling regs "standard regs" or "standard fish" cause taht makes no sence to me - IMO if you find youself calling people you play iwth everyday "standard reg" or you played 1k hands with someone and all you know about them is that they are 20/17 you should cut down the number of tables you play

no, don't ever tone down ur posts plz

Tom stop playing stupid Horde mode, and play some team deathmatch with me and my bro!

On January 22 2012 21:22 handbanana21 wrote: Tom stop playing stupid Horde mode, and play some team deathmatch with me and my bro!

but i like horde

what an awful betsizin :/