Open Limping (Not Trolling, I Promise)

This is going to sound like I'm super trolling, but I swear I'm not. Serious discussion ok? I've played years w/o ever open limping a single hand ever in any scenario mainly caz the internet says "that's wrong", especially from my days playing online 6-max, if you open limped = you da fish. My roommates and I were watching the streaming coverage of the Main Event final table 2011, and during it, Phil Collins employed an open limping strategy which seemed to be some epic fail, and got him into such hairy situations. I found it kind of interesting since that kid seems like a pretty intelligent guy. Surely he had some reason behind it? (Personally I remember thinking Collin's play was interesting at the start of the FT when he limped the JTs, QJs, and his limp re-raise of Heinz etc... and slowly went to straight up terrible when he started limping JJ UTG, and limping AQ in the CO when the blinds had nice 12-15bb reshoving stacks.)

In cash games, I've seen a growing number of regs (who seem somewhat competent / I know this might sound as an oxymoron) who have started doing a version of this open limping strategy mixed in w limp re-raises to combat light iso's and keep the pot smaller when they are oop vs regs who 3bet very light in position.

Has anyone played vs this in their live games? Have any opinion on regs that do this / what type of hands they are open limping or limp-raising with?

If you're going to respond w a version of "If they open limp = they aren't a competent regular /thread" save yourself the time and don't post.

Example of hand I saw at Commerce 10/20:

$5k effective stacks. One of the older asian regs limps for $20 UTG+1. Young kid iso's to $100 in CO. Everyone folds back to UTG+1 asian guy who now limp-raises to $360. Young kid calls. Flop comes 9-5-2r. UTG+1 bets $600. Young kid calls. Turn comes Kx, chk chk. River comes 8. UTG+1 bets $1300. Young kid calls and UTG+1 showed AKo.

Made me feel like UTG+1's thought process goes as follows: I have AKo but we are too deep to get it in preflop. I feel uncomfortable if I raise and get multiple callers or get 3bet. Going to take a line that looks like KK+ in hopes I can take it down preflop. (Post flop plays out standard)

Does that sound about right?

to me it just feels like you get into a pot with very little information about the ranges of villains who are going to limp along

I don't think it's necessary at all, at least not vs standard regulars, maybe vs someone who likes to isolate by betting huge preflop when people limp in live games

On November 28 2011 17:32 Fayth wrote: to me it just feels like you get into a pot with very little information about the ranges of villains who are going to limp along I don't think it's necessary at all, at least not vs standard regulars, maybe vs someone who likes to isolate by betting huge preflop when people limp in live games

It's kind of interesting you say that because there are some games I find myself thinking it's correct to iso 10x the bb just caz some of the fishy limpers will be calling w w/e they are limping in with. People are now open limping to limp raise to combat these lighter bomb-size isolations.

On November 28 2011 17:30 JonnyCosMo wrote: Example of hand I saw at Commerce 10/20: $5k effective stacks. One of the older asian regs limps for $20 UTG+1. Young kid iso's to $100 in CO. Everyone folds back to UTG+1 asian guy who now limp-raises to $360. Young kid calls. Flop comes 9-5-2r. UTG+1 bets $600. Young kid calls. Turn comes Kx, chk chk. River comes 8. UTG+1 bets $1300. Young kid calls and UTG+1 showed AKo. Made me feel like UTG+1's thought process goes as follows: I have AKo but we are too deep to get it in preflop. I feel uncomfortable if I raise and get multiple callers or get 3bet. Going to take a line that looks like KK+ in hopes I can take it down preflop. (Post flop plays out standard) Does that sound about right?

that sounds like someone who sucks postflop :D

sure there are many situations where limping is profitable in online play, not sure about live poker.

For example, if i join a table at a new website as an unknown, and limp in early position i am going to have a hugely profitable limp-reraise bluff as regs are going to be isolating me with between 20-30% of there range, but will probably fold all but a small % of that range to a limp-reraise as i am an unknown and they will assume i have AA. Unfotunately you can only do this proftably as an unknown.
I think that limp-reraise exmaple with AK is really awful tho.

On November 28 2011 18:00 Stroggoz wrote: sure there are many situations where limping is profitable in online play, not sure about live poker. For example, if i join a table at a new website as an unknown, and limp in early position i am going to have a hugely profitable limp-reraise bluff as regs are going to be isolating me with between 20-30% of there range, but will probably fold all but a small % of that range to a limp-reraise as i am an unknown and they will assume i have AA. Unfotunately you can only do this proftably as an unknown. I think that limp-reraise exmaple with AK is really awful tho.

That's an interesting example.

I think most limp reraises I see are awful. Kinda why I posted this, trying to keep an open mind on this open limping topic.

Anyone who watched the WSOP FT coverage this year wanna comment on Phil Collin's limping strat?

there is a reason why no body good limps in highstakes games online

50 hands of success from using a limping strategy doesnt compare with the millions and millions of $ won from raising.

On November 28 2011 18:38 wobbly_au wrote: there is a reason why no body good limps in highstakes games online

Phil Ivey open limps

prob in super specific situation for super specific reason, both of which doesnt warrant a retarded thread in reference in 50 hands played in a live tournament.

i'm surprised you don't limp often considering you play live

i only play 2/5 and only occasionally play 5/10 but i limp alot, most people aren't aggressive enough and punish you.

and i agree with you limping to keep pot small against people re isolate, or just raise you often is fine, at least imo. it's hard enough to play oop, limping just makes the pot smaller.

those specific hands that you mentioned about JT/QJ that phil collins limped (i didn't watch the main event) but i do the same when i limp utg as i don't really feel comfortable bloating the pot/opening yourself to getting re raised with JT/QJ and go ahead and KJ oop.

holy fuck im tired t.t

fuck it i go to bed

look only time limping works is when u play with a bunch of softies and even then raising is better.

this doesnt include very specific situations.

I open limp all the time in lots of different scenarios. There's so many things to consider, which I'm too lazy to get into since it's pretty obvious, but there are a lot of times where limping first in > opening in all sorts of positions.

I generally don't find these situations happen in games under 25/50 though, and more so as the stakes get higher and higher as the games tend to revolve around one or two bad players.

It should be something you shouldn't discount completely and should be part of your overall game plan.

This is all relating to live games mostly, I don't see these spots common in online games where stacks are shallower as opposed to certain live game scenarios where everyone at the table is sitting 500-1000BB deep to cover the fish in a big pot. These spots lead to very very interesting hands often.

and yes there are lots of situations where opening 10-15x BB first in can be very profitable too.

At least there's something to talk about in this thread.

^LOL

horribe post

Your post has no credible evidence limping is superior to opening. You give your opponents perfect leverage to just limp behind with good implied odds, they can choose to isiolate you whenever the fuck they want, they can literally shit on you with better information constantly, and as soon as people notice your limp reraising they widen their limp back range and isiolate with less polarized hands.

Their are better more sophisticated spots to limp, like on the button vs 2 aggressive blinds but subjectively always worse (or less +EV) then opening.

Cosmo, why do you think that the thought process you mentioned is better then just opening and facing a decision when you get 3 bet or playing a multi way pot with a unimproved AK?

One thing I want to mention is that their is 1 special occasion when you have a 80vpip whale directly to your left, and u can start limping and having him or others isolate you, and then you can have a very profitable call or squeeze.

On November 29 2011 02:40 casinocasino wrote: Your post has no credible evidence limping is superior to opening. You give your opponents perfect leverage to just limp behind with good implied odds, they can choose to isiolate you whenever the fuck they want, they can literally shit on you with better information constantly, and as soon as people notice your limp reraising they widen their limp back range and isiolate with less polarized hands. Their are better more sophisticated spots to limp, like on the button vs 2 aggressive blinds but subjectively always worse (or less +EV) then opening. Cosmo, why do you think that the thought process you mentioned is better then just opening and facing a decision when you get 3 bet or playing a multi way pot with a unimproved AK?

The thought process i mentioned is terrible, I was just trying to identify what people are thinking when they do it and thats what I came up with.

Trying to get to the root of all this limping non sense!!!

[vital]myth has cardrunner video's on limping . & limping behind .
Should check that out .

i think its just bad play style i cant think much deeper then giving the 10/20 regs at the commerce much more thought then that.

i think it would be kind of interesting if we can form some kind of discussion where the idea of some circumstance makes limping a more +ev play then opening online and live.
similarally to what stroggoz posted earlier

On November 29 2011 02:51 casinocasino wrote: One thing I want to mention is that their is 1 special occasion when you have a 80vpip whale directly to your left, and u can start limping and having him or others isolate you, and then you can have a very profitable call or squeeze.

wow, your almost there.

keep working that poker mind.

I'm not a strong advocate of limping, but it's an exploitable play that's good to mix into your game at all levels.

anyway, on to the next Cosmo strategy post.

On November 29 2011 04:54 kaboom wrote: I'm not a strong advocate of limping, but it's an exploitable play that's good to mix into your game at all levels. anyway, on to the next Cosmo strategy post.

lol, you not going to get any strategy from me. just seeking answers

On November 29 2011 04:54 kaboom wrote: I'm not a strong advocate of limping, but it's an exploitable play that's good to mix into your game at all levels. anyway, on to the next Cosmo strategy post.

On November 29 2011 04:54 kaboom wrote: I open limp all the time in lots of different scenarios

You say you've played against this strategy before, do you really find it difficult to play against? Imho its very easy to play against, especially once you get an idea of their ranges.

It might be an interesting option to limp vs these 40bb shorties altho I havent done the math...

On November 29 2011 03:54 zionlll wrote: [vital]myth has cardrunner video's on limping . & limping behind . Should check that out .

Nice joax

On November 29 2011 07:14 EvilSky wrote: You say you've played against this strategy before, do you really find it difficult to play against? Imho its very easy to play against, especially once you get an idea of their ranges. It might be an interesting option to limp vs these 40bb shorties altho I havent done the math...

Very good post

On November 29 2011 06:08 casinocasino wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2011 04:54 kaboom wrote: I'm not a strong advocate of limping, but it's an exploitable play that's good to mix into your game at all levels. anyway, on to the next Cosmo strategy post.   On November 29 2011 04:54 kaboom wrote: I open limp all the time in lots of different scenarios

did you even read past the first sentence.

I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond to you.

if you want to nitpick at what I'm trying to contribute, just ignore my posts.

I was going to put something condescending here, but what's the point.

one situation (not many) that come to mind is if you have a huge whale on your right, and a shortstacker right after him, you wanna play a lot of pots, but if you raise / whale calls, SS shove range is super wide / annoying, may be a spot where you wanna start open liming hands like weak Axss, or 89s type hands

The main problem with trying to form a limp-raising strategy to me is that it's hard to predict how your opponents will adjust so you would have to systematically approach a ton of situations individually depending on opponent. Tough thing to do when OOP (and multitabling). Especially since it takes quite a bit of hands played that way to establish anything more than guessing. If you were now to limp-raise in your regular online game it's hard to say whether your opponent will take that as you misclicking and then trying to make the best of it or being creative w/ AA, or tilting.

When people say you should be unpredictable to your opponents I think that's not entirely true. When you're unpredictable to your opponents you can't predict their reaction to your play either and your goal is to take the line that you predict will make the most money.

Trying to have a balanced limp-raising range is an interesting idea though and would be very cool to see someone use it effectively.

What would be the point of having a balanced limp-raising range tho? what are we trying to achieve and what part of our range does it benefit?

The coolness factor. :D How awesome would it be to see a winning reg constistently limp-raise other regs?

But in all honesty I haven't thought much about it, some people might adapt really badly to it, I don't know. I might test it on smaller stakes some day.

Open limping early position is probably the optimal game theory play in tough 9handed games. I doubt most would be able to pull it off though.

Sharknebulah kinda pulls it off!

open limping stuff like 67o is profitable in spots such is these: you are playing 10/20 and you casually throw in a black chip. later when there is more action claim its a raise. now your hand is extremely deceptive! watch the flop come 667 and stack 56 for a billion blinds because they put you on AA. yumyum.

also if they raise your "limp" you can limp rr allin. watch them fold KK and then casually flip over your hand. then exploit your image and win money. yumyum.

Kelisitaan

On November 29 2011 07:14 EvilSky wrote: You say you've played against this strategy before, do you really find it difficult to play against? Imho its very easy to play against, especially once you get an idea of their ranges. It might be an interesting option to limp vs these 40bb shorties altho I havent done the math...

This thread is to get a general idea of their ranges so I can play better vs it.

On November 29 2011 14:11 tomson wrote: The coolness factor. :D How awesome would it be to see a winning reg constistently limp-raise other regs? But in all honesty I haven't thought much about it, some people might adapt really badly to it, I don't know. I might test it on smaller stakes some day.

I think I'm going to try and raise my coolness factor today for the lulz

i think the game has to be very very loose and aggressive for this to be good. i have played in a few live games (not high stakes) where the catalyst would raise every hand, either open raising or 3betting and most people knew this. when i would be OOP against him, sometimes i would limp with the intention of raising his raise, after some people called, effectively created dead money because they'd expect his raise but no my re raise.

i do not think a game in general will typically be loose and aggressive enough to merit open limping (and its very likely limping in LP is always bad)



fwiw the game i would open limp in, would usually be 4 to 6 handed and is not high stakes. i think mixing in some open limps in a very aggressive game could be a useful tool if you are playing an unobservant opponent.

chris u are an idiot

Whenever this discussion pops up the arguments against limping are so laughably weak. People were taught that limping is bad in 2003 and they still believe that today without questioning it for a second. It's like a religion.

I think open limping can toughen up your raising range by putting some very nice hands that you were folding against 3-bets anyway elsewhere. Everyone does this postflop constantly and it works, but for some reason doing it preflop is considered unthinkable. I also think that's what Collins was doing at that FT, and it seems very useful in tournaments where the entire game is preflop.

If you don't know what I mean, read the story in the spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +

If there's some game-theoretical solution for hold'em, would open limping be a part of it, or does that give away too much EV to the blinds? I don't know, but neither does anyone else! Add to this some exploitative ideas: it may just be that your opponents play more poorly when faced with an open limp, not hard to imagine because they haven't trained against it for a billion hands online.

edit: whoops didn't notice I'm not supposed to post here since this is high steaks. My sincerest apologies.

On November 29 2011 22:56 wobbly_au wrote: chris u are an idiot

wtf manner

So... if you were to construct an ep limping range as your basic strategy for a FR game 100bb deep, what range do you think would be best? I'd try something leaning towards {Axs, small pairs, big trappy shit} since if a limp/reraising dynamic gets built up there's a lot of options for 5bet shipping in there.

I see two big problems. The first one is simply the number of big hands that might get wasted in the course of balancing our range. Once opponents had observed your strategy, you would need to limp close to a majority of big pairs you get dealt in ep to balance your range if you want any chance at l/rring them a chunk, and yet your opponents will likely have got a little more wary of raising you and just be over limping a lot of speculative stuff in position, ruining a lot of big pairs for you.

The second problem is that as people overlimp you now have a 3x bigger pot/stack ratio which greatly increases your positional disadvantage. All in all it doesn't seem worth it as a general strategy but pretty good to do in some specific spots involving big fish.

Also if you notice live players that ALWAYS limp reraise their big hands then you should start 3betting their EP opens light.

Oly's post is good.

Jelle's post is moronic.

Jelle I think its funny you compare limping to religion because in the same way the burden of proof is on those who say there is a god rather then those who deny it, its actually on you to prove why limping is good instead of our "arguments against limping". More to the point you need to also prove how it is better than a raising strategy.

You bring up some ridiculous made up game and extrapolate to get weird conclusions. So for some reason we start off with a strategy of opening 50% of hands UTG and folding 85% to a 3b... I think another way to improve on this strategy is to simply open less hands. Id love it if you could explain it in the actual context of poker with real hands to see exactly where the benefit comes from.

The way I understand it is the goal and holy grail of this strategy is being able to play a wider range of middle strength hands that you would otherwise fold to a 3b. But with this comes the reality that our opponents get to play an even wider range in position for cheap. Also lets not forget that for the pleasure of seeing flops with middle strength hands in small multiway pots, facing wide ranges, we also have to pay by doing so with some of our strongest hands losing tons of value in the process.

The assumption that limping will cause our opponents to play poorly is pretty baseless. How? why? I dont get it... "because they are not used to it" is not a valid argument imho.

I keep coming up with more and more arguments as to why this is bad after saying I didnt have to, so Im just gonna shut up now and if you want to prove me wrong Id be more than happy to listen ^^!

wobbly's right i am an idiot. hes fine

and just to clarify, the catalyst in the game i played was a big fish

sorry if im way off base with my comment

edit: the way i was thinking about it in that game (the only game i've open limped in) was my limp was essentially a straddle.

normally i'd think it's stupid, but so often in that game everyone but the whale folds after calling the whale's initial raise, so i'm almost always HU against with lots of added money to the pot. i thought it was fairly good since no one ever caught on, but i guess it is bad.

i am an idiot

evilsky great post. A+

dont take it to heart chris.. ur obv not an idiot, but your just wrong.

On November 30 2011 07:27 EvilSky wrote: Jelle I think its funny you compare limping to religion because in the same way the burden of proof is on those who say there is a god rather then those who deny it, its actually on you to prove why limping is good instead of our "arguments against limping". More to the point you need to also prove how it is better than a raising strategy.

Why is the onus on me? Many people are saying that limping is automatically bad no matter what, I am merely saying that it might not be that simple.

If I need to prove that it's better than a raising strategy I basicly have to solve poker to make a point... I can't do that, sorry. I think that if the perfect holdem solution were to come out, it might include open limping and it might not. I'm on the fence about it.

You bring up some ridiculous made up game and extrapolate to get weird conclusions. So for some reason we start off with a strategy of opening 50% of hands UTG and folding 85% to a 3b... I think another way to improve on this strategy is to simply open less hands.

Of course! I was merely trying to make the point that the 1st range, even though it has slightly less hands, gets trounced by 3bets while the second range does fine even though they both play the same chunk of their range against a 3bet. Of course you have other strategic options like playing less hands or 4-bet bluffing (the strats i talked about continued against a 3bet only with the nuts, of course its silly), ... the potential of limping is still highlighted nicely imo.

The way I understand it is the goal and holy grail of this strategy is being able to play a wider range of middle strength hands that you would otherwise fold to a 3b.

Kind of! Having a very nice hand in your raising hand may not be worth as much if you are facing many 3-bets (and by now, I think most people would say that 3bets are a big part of the game) and you have to fold those very nice hands to a 3bet anyway. Therefore, you can omit that hand from your raising range by for example limp-calling with it instead, accomplishing the goal of making your raising range tougher. The goal is to get stronger vs 3bets, not to play more hands.

But with this comes the reality that our opponents get to play an even wider range in position for cheap.

Is that really true? I can remember that when people first started open minraising, no-sayers would argue: "but if u only charge 2bb people will just call with anything and outplay u in position". Over time, that claim has faded. What kind of hand do you think people will limp behind with? 54o? And they'll make tons of money by doing that? I personally really doubt that, but then again I don't really know. Surely they can play a few more hands since it's cheaper, but all I'm saying is maybe it's not as big of a concern as you make it out to be.

Also lets not forget that for the pleasure of seeing flops with middle strength hands in small multiway pots, facing wide ranges, we also have to pay by doing so with some of our strongest hands losing tons of value in the process.

If this were true I'd immediately agree with you, but I kind of think it isn't. This is what I tried to show with my ridiculous made up game... I tried to show that you need a surprisingly low amount (yet admittedly still decent chunk) of nut hands to make a solid range. Why? Because we can also defend against raises by just calling. Remember that our raising range included a ton of hands that were "just not good enough" to call a 3bet, so they are presumably good enough to call an isolation raise. The strategy I suggest would look something like this I think:

When your limp gets raised, you...:
- Very often call
- Raise some of the time
- Very rarely, but sometimes, fold

the idea being that your range is already preselected to call typical isolation ranges, and if your opponents make such big isolation ranges that you can't call anymore, they will run into your extremely strong hands or those of the rest of the table too often for it to be worth stealing your 1bb

The assumption that limping will cause our opponents to play poorly is pretty baseless. How? why? I dont get it... "because they are not used to it" is not a valid argument imho.

Why not? It seems perfectly reasonable to me to assume that people will play worse when faced with a strategy they are not used to, in the same way that people who played 1,000,000 hands are on average better than people who have played 50 hands. That's just a small point though, if this were the only thing limping had going for it though I'd immediately agree w/u that it's terrible.

I keep coming up with more and more arguments as to why this is bad after saying I didnt have to, so Im just gonna shut up now and if you want to prove me wrong Id be more than happy to listen ^^!

I can't prove anything! You misunderstood me if you thought I was claiming to know everything I was really just throwing my thoughts on the subject out there, of course I'm not nescessarily right. I do feel, however, that many of the arguments of the "limping is always bad" crowd are flawed.

ugh sorry Evilsky i need to learn to make my points more to the point :/

omg lol. in an online game u should never really limp. only time to limp is if there is a whale behind u who plays 80% of hands if limped to him but only like 20% of hands if raised to him. even then it sucks when someone behind him tries to iso so it would only work if there are some passive dudes behind u (or if the fish is so fucking bad postflop that its to their advantage to limp anyways).

all in all there are VERY few spots i open limp...haven't done it in over 2 years. there are a ton of spots when i limp behind tho, mostly vs ppl who have tried to employ this open limping strategy. i gots the position tho, bam.

didn't really read any of these massive WALLS of text but your overall pf gameplan does not need to be THAT sophisticated. DAMN!

edit: fixed spelling -_-

I played with phildo recently deepish but not itm in a live tourney and he open limped 100% of his hands with like 20-50bb stacks all around. I think his goal isn't to be polarized to super weak and super strong hands, it's to limp hands that you are limp/calling or limp/folding with mostly and force the blinds to play OOP vs you when they will make mistakes when seeing a flop.

I think he realizes that tournament push/fold poker is pretty much common knowledge and throwing in a limping strategy and getting to play more postflop benefits him more than immediate fold equity of a raise. Also explains why he defends super wide to small raises in the bb. (J6s to utg open and 48o were two hands I saw get to showdown that he defended). Also note that in live poker your opponents' bet sizing and timing aren't the only pieces of information you get so you can limp and effectively know how strong or weak your opponents are after the flop much easier than online. I've been thinking about adding some open limping to my game in MTTs but haven't as of yet except SB vs BB.

As to cash game limping I haven't had much trouble vs it. If people are known for limp/raising a lot I treat their limps as opens and iso them only with hands I would 3bet to their opens and if they limp/raise I treat it as a 4-bet.

Only example I have seen in high level videos is Giggy who throws in a complete call BvB once in a while.

EDIT: and I open limp a lot in live games with stuff like 22-66 and 76s because people don't fold postlop, noone will attack me and they will pay off when I hit anyway. I can't see that ever be the case in even NL50 normal games these days.

From a tournament example you can look at Collins who brought this 'revolutionary' limping strategy to ME FT and failed badly against aggressive villains

On November 30 2011 13:47 thewh00sel2 wrote: I played with phildo recently deepish but not itm in a live tourney and he open limped 100% of his hands with like 20-50bb stacks all around. I think his goal isn't to be polarized to super weak and super strong hands, it's to limp hands that you are limp/calling or limp/folding with mostly and force the blinds to play OOP vs you when they will make mistakes when seeing a flop. I think he realizes that tournament push/fold poker is pretty much common knowledge and throwing in a limping strategy and getting to play more postflop benefits him more than immediate fold equity of a raise. Also explains why he defends super wide to small raises in the bb. (J6s to utg open and 48o were two hands I saw get to showdown that he defended). Also note that in live poker your opponents' bet sizing and timing aren't the only pieces of information you get so you can limp and effectively know how strong or weak your opponents are after the flop much easier than online. I've been thinking about adding some open limping to my game in MTTs but haven't as of yet except SB vs BB. As to cash game limping I haven't had much trouble vs it. If people are known for limp/raising a lot I treat their limps as opens and iso them only with hands I would 3bet to their opens and if they limp/raise I treat it as a 4-bet.

was me btw, just forgot my password for a min

I played on this pot limit live game and it was very loose but not too aggressive when it comes to 3bets, and I would limp premium hands UTG and UTG+1 pretty much 100% of the time. By raising I would verrrry rarely get 3betted and would just end up playing a 6+ way pot oop, but by limping I could limp-rr a lot since the fish loved to pot vs a lot of limps to build the pot, and still not folding to limp/3bets and not hand-reading them to be premium hands mostly.

Also when there were straddles (all positions allowed), especially button ones, limp-rr EP was soo good because you could re-pot really big and the straddler would a lot of the time pot any2 when limped to him.

And the times when they started getting suspicious I could just exploit that by limping hands like T9s/low pps and getting to play them multiway w/o getting iso'ed.

I'm completely sure that it was best in that specific game.

EDIT: pot limit holdem

what about limpin in PLO -.-
might actually be a more interesting discussion

Not much of a PLO player yet, but I can see myself finding many many open limping spots in a 9 handed deep stack live PLO game.

I think theres a few spots where open-limping is worth consideration in certain live nl games. If the table dynamic is pretty passive, there a couple stations to your left, and all good/aggro types are across the table or in the blinds, I think occasionally open limping with small-medium pairs and suited connectors from early position can be a good play, especially if the average stack size isn't that high.

As for why, its pretty tough to misplay these hands multi-way post flop, and the higher the stack to pot ratio the more your edge comes into play.

If a good player does pick up on this and makes the correct largish iso raise, medium suited connectors can be turned into a bluff given the amount of credit your first limp-reraise will get and given how medium suited connectors will suck more often than any other type of hand if you run into an over pair.

I don't think open limping is ever ideal online however, PTR exists and games are tougher/more aggressive at comparable stakes. Not only that, but playing live gives a lot more advantages for determining when to limp. A quick glance to the left can tell you that at least 1 fish wants to play his hand, probably for a limp. Its tough to tell if someone's steaming online, even tougher to tell if someone is focusing on the game online, and a drunkies avatar will never reek of booze.

On November 30 2011 19:30 MiPwnYa wrote: what about limpin in PLO -.- might actually be a more interesting discussion

i open limp all the time EP in a good 9 handed game. limp/call or limp/fold depending on ensuing action. Stuff like AKJ6ss to A and 5668ds...not quite strong enough to call a 3b profitably in a ring game but good hands to play multiway vs bad players.

i should say...not quite strong enough to call a 3b vs good players.

I tried open limping when I was plaaying this super fishy live cash game, so I would get JJ and limp, then a maniac would raise then I would reraise knowing 100% he will call my reraise no matter what, worked like a chamr. If I just raised from EP he would only call and still play maniacly on any flop, this way I get most of the money in REALLY good (pre).

Can't think of much other reasons to open limp, not counting limping behind which I think it's fairly standard in a lot of spots where you feel you might get l/rr'ed or limp/called with too strong of a range.

On December 01 2011 14:57 n0rthf4ce wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2011 19:30 MiPwnYa wrote: what about limpin in PLO -.- might actually be a more interesting discussion i open limp all the time EP in a good 9 handed game. limp/call or limp/fold depending on ensuing action. Stuff like AKJ6ss to A and 5668ds...not quite strong enough to call a 3b profitably in a ring game but good hands to play multiway vs bad players.

im not much of a full ring/live player but isnt AKJ6ss with A hi suit good enough to just open EP ? its not like were gonna get 3bet that often given that our EP range is fairly strong. I do agree that there are tons of hands that we can open limp in a good FR game

On December 01 2011 19:26 MiPwnYa wrote: Show nested quote + On December 01 2011 14:57 n0rthf4ce wrote:   On November 30 2011 19:30 MiPwnYa wrote: what about limpin in PLO -.- might actually be a more interesting discussion i open limp all the time EP in a good 9 handed game. limp/call or limp/fold depending on ensuing action. Stuff like AKJ6ss to A and 5668ds...not quite strong enough to call a 3b profitably in a ring game but good hands to play multiway vs bad players. im not much of a full ring/live player but isnt AKJ6ss with A hi suit good enough to just open EP ? its not like were gonna get 3bet that often given that our EP range is fairly strong. I do agree that there are tons of hands that we can open limp in a good FR game

Never played 9handed PLO so I'm not sure in practice how I would approach playing in the first 3 positions. 6max experience tells me AKJ6ss is a good open EP online because there's a decent chance you get through to the blinds. Whereas in live 9handed EP, you're pretty much guaranteeing to play the hand oop. I'm on the fence with that one but I'd also lean toward limping it just so that I have some nut flush potential in my limping range w/ higher sidecards (not sure how relevent this is most of the time).

In HE I think the main reason its bad is that it corrects your opponents' passive play. Typically you do not want players putting in a raise after you and typical regulars and nitty fish are a lot more likely to raise an open limp than they are to 3 bet an open raise. Certainly there is a way to exploit someone raising open-limps too often, but most players will be raising limps with a frequency that is about right while their 3 betting frequency is not enough.

Online open-limping also sucks because of the no-flop-no drop policy and opportunity cost. If no one has anything do you want to spend time playing a small raked pot or just win pre and move on to the next hand?

On November 30 2011 16:13 thewh00sel wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2011 13:47 thewh00sel2 wrote: I played with phildo recently deepish but not itm in a live tourney and he open limped 100% of his hands with like 20-50bb stacks all around. I think his goal isn't to be polarized to super weak and super strong hands, it's to limp hands that you are limp/calling or limp/folding with mostly and force the blinds to play OOP vs you when they will make mistakes when seeing a flop. I think he realizes that tournament push/fold poker is pretty much common knowledge and throwing in a limping strategy and getting to play more postflop benefits him more than immediate fold equity of a raise. Also explains why he defends super wide to small raises in the bb. (J6s to utg open and 48o were two hands I saw get to showdown that he defended). Also note that in live poker your opponents' bet sizing and timing aren't the only pieces of information you get so you can limp and effectively know how strong or weak your opponents are after the flop much easier than online. I've been thinking about adding some open limping to my game in MTTs but haven't as of yet except SB vs BB. As to cash game limping I haven't had much trouble vs it. If people are known for limp/raising a lot I treat their limps as opens and iso them only with hands I would 3bet to their opens and if they limp/raise I treat it as a 4-bet. was me btw, just forgot my password for a min

Can you give some examples of spots (or how the table dynamics need to be) that would make you decide to open limp in a tourney?

I could devise an open limping strategy for a 9 handed NL game online.

The issue is that even in 6max now, it's at the point where a UTG opening range really shouldn't be more than 18 percent unless you are really good. This means without history it's correct to just flat even QQ against a UTG open from an average regular. If that's the case with 6 players at the table, how much tighter must those numbers get for the 7th 8th and 9th spots at the table?

It's quite problematic to value raise JJ and c-bet flops you don't make sets on from UTG @ 9 handed table because it's correct for them to flat and not 3bet stronger pairs pre, and it's also very often going to be incorrect for them to continue against a c-bet from a UTG open without a set if they flatted pre with a pair they deemed not likely to be ahead of your opening range. So you can solve for this in one of two ways, you either widen your UTG opening range or you formulate a strategy that includes limping.

I almost never play 9 handed but if I ever did, I would limp the majority of hands I played from the first three spots. Mostly SC, suited wheel aces, suited broadway aces,pairs bigger than 7s and AK. My plan ..well I guess that's kinda self evident at this point....Keep pots small with the marginal parts of my range, induce lots of bluffs and multi barrels when I have something really awesome, and utilize the inherent strength of my range with timely limp/3bets.

There's clear spots where it's the best play to limp when it's folded around to you in the SB and the BB is a tough player as well.

Ever open limping the cutoff seems incredibly unlikely to be a winning play.

Just my 2cents,

I think you can sometimes ol, from button for example, or in soem specific live games, where nobody watches what are you doing and you can set mine with small pockets by ol'ing.
Otherwise it's just too difficult to play.

On December 01 2011 19:26 MiPwnYa wrote: Show nested quote + On December 01 2011 14:57 n0rthf4ce wrote:   On November 30 2011 19:30 MiPwnYa wrote: what about limpin in PLO -.- might actually be a more interesting discussion i open limp all the time EP in a good 9 handed game. limp/call or limp/fold depending on ensuing action. Stuff like AKJ6ss to A and 5668ds...not quite strong enough to call a 3b profitably in a ring game but good hands to play multiway vs bad players. im not much of a full ring/live player but isnt AKJ6ss with A hi suit good enough to just open EP ? its not like were gonna get 3bet that often given that our EP range is fairly strong. I do agree that there are tons of hands that we can open limp in a good FR game

Ive been playing around with this and AKJ6ss is def good enough to open. now im starting to limp AJ108ss and AK67ds as these are much weaker hands and a good ones to give our limping range some balance. however im not sure about the merits of limping AK67ds...what do u guys think?

if AK67 is with A hi and 6 hi suits then I like limping, if its w A and K hi suit def open.
As for AJT8ss w A hi suit you should just open that its pretty strong

I found open limping to be very good in super fishy live games with like 22-66, 67s, Axs and stuff

if you wanna be that cute guy who losses 100k developing an ok limping strategy go for it

On May 03 2012 10:41 MARSHALL28 wrote: There's clear spots where it's the best play to limp when it's folded around to you in the SB and the BB is a tough player as well.

This.

I open limp all the time in live holdem games. i think it's really good in a lot of super passive/loose/bad games. especially if you can still win a ton of pots without showdown multiway LOL

or limp shit like 22 or 78s utg cuz ppl are again. super loose/passives that we are spewing into their likely better hands if we raise but get massive value when we hit. and we aren't ever getting exploited by getting iso'd light over and over.

On February 06 2013 14:53 YoMeR wrote: I open limp all the time in live holdem games. i think it's really good in a lot of super passive/loose/bad games. especially if you can still win a ton of pots without showdown multiway LOL or limp shit like 22 or 78s utg cuz ppl are again. super loose/passives that we are spewing into their likely better hands if we raise but get massive value when we hit. and we aren't ever getting exploited by getting iso'd light over and over.

This x100 imo!

I used to have a hard time vs. good regs in 9 max, who open limp/open limp 3 bets ep, like Sharknebulah, Kelisitaan, FRiaR SKanK, mustanggino, etc back in the days.
Then i started doing it last year and i love it, it's amazing how bad most of the regs adjust to it.

What are u open limping"?

HEY! What do you guys open limp O_O

T8s

On February 07 2013 20:26 Minion wrote: I used to have a hard time vs. good regs in 9 max, who open limp/open limp 3 bets ep, like Sharknebulah, Kelisitaan, FRiaR SKanK, mustanggino, etc back in the days. Then i started doing it last year and i love it, it's amazing how bad most of the regs adjust to it.

this is not true, Kelisitaan never open limped... only limped back and often strong hands lik AA

lol cosmo... in your standard live game with a ton of loose/passive players I'll probably be limping all pp under 88 utg, all weak Ax sooted under ATs and potentially even shit like K6s+ depending if there's a gigantic whale in the bb. I may opt to simply raise a significantly wider range with whale in the bb/sb if there's no other good players that can rape my looser utg opening but other than that my utg opening range is pretty static/tight.

in MP and in ep my limping range in similar described games widens significantly...especially in co/btn where i take down pot after pot without showdown w shit like Q6s LOLLLLL.

basically my game would be unbelievably easy to rape/exploit...but the fish are so bad so it doesn't matter anyways. even if I get in pots with dominated hands it's not like i'm going to be losing a ton a bbs to better hands...and since live noobs limp strong hands like AQ/AKs i get to stack them on like K65 boards w shit like K6 for the lulz.

--- Nuked ---

WTF, open limping is bad because you will get isolated even by small amounts and we will be playing oop against god knows what range, if we dont want that to happen then we have to limp/3bet often, and if we dont want to get stomped by 4bets we need a balanced 3 betting range which means we will have to be limping JJ AK+ which sucks because we will loose a lot of value in those hands overall and even with a balanced range it sounds vulnerable to undersized positional isolations.


So Wobbly is right and being a douche about it as usual, there is a reason why it doesn't happen in high stakes online, but it happens live in softer games full of whales.