Open Limping (Not Trolling, I Promise)

This is going to sound like I'm super trolling, but I swear I'm not. Serious discussion ok? I've played years w/o ever open limping a single hand ever in any scenario mainly caz the internet says "that's wrong", especially from my days playing online 6-max, if you open limped = you da fish. My roommates and I were watching the streaming coverage of the Main Event final table 2011, and during it, Phil Collins employed an open limping strategy which seemed to be some epic fail, and got him into such hairy situations. I found it kind of interesting since that kid seems like a pretty intelligent guy. Surely he had some reason behind it? (Personally I remember thinking Collin's play was interesting at the start of the FT when he limped the JTs, QJs, and his limp re-raise of Heinz etc... and slowly went to straight up terrible when he started limping JJ UTG, and limping AQ in the CO when the blinds had nice 12-15bb reshoving stacks.)

In cash games, I've seen a growing number of regs (who seem somewhat competent / I know this might sound as an oxymoron) who have started doing a version of this open limping strategy mixed in w limp re-raises to combat light iso's and keep the pot smaller when they are oop vs regs who 3bet very light in position.

Has anyone played vs this in their live games? Have any opinion on regs that do this / what type of hands they are open limping or limp-raising with?

If you're going to respond w a version of "If they open limp = they aren't a competent regular /thread" save yourself the time and don't post.

Example of hand I saw at Commerce 10/20:

$5k effective stacks. One of the older asian regs limps for $20 UTG+1. Young kid iso's to $100 in CO. Everyone folds back to UTG+1 asian guy who now limp-raises to $360. Young kid calls. Flop comes 9-5-2r. UTG+1 bets $600. Young kid calls. Turn comes Kx, chk chk. River comes 8. UTG+1 bets $1300. Young kid calls and UTG+1 showed AKo.

Made me feel like UTG+1's thought process goes as follows: I have AKo but we are too deep to get it in preflop. I feel uncomfortable if I raise and get multiple callers or get 3bet. Going to take a line that looks like KK+ in hopes I can take it down preflop. (Post flop plays out standard)

Does that sound about right?

to me it just feels like you get into a pot with very little information about the ranges of villains who are going to limp along

I don't think it's necessary at all, at least not vs standard regulars, maybe vs someone who likes to isolate by betting huge preflop when people limp in live games

On November 28 2011 17:32 Fayth wrote: to me it just feels like you get into a pot with very little information about the ranges of villains who are going to limp along I don't think it's necessary at all, at least not vs standard regulars, maybe vs someone who likes to isolate by betting huge preflop when people limp in live games

It's kind of interesting you say that because there are some games I find myself thinking it's correct to iso 10x the bb just caz some of the fishy limpers will be calling w w/e they are limping in with. People are now open limping to limp raise to combat these lighter bomb-size isolations.

On November 28 2011 17:30 JonnyCosMo wrote: Example of hand I saw at Commerce 10/20: $5k effective stacks. One of the older asian regs limps for $20 UTG+1. Young kid iso's to $100 in CO. Everyone folds back to UTG+1 asian guy who now limp-raises to $360. Young kid calls. Flop comes 9-5-2r. UTG+1 bets $600. Young kid calls. Turn comes Kx, chk chk. River comes 8. UTG+1 bets $1300. Young kid calls and UTG+1 showed AKo. Made me feel like UTG+1's thought process goes as follows: I have AKo but we are too deep to get it in preflop. I feel uncomfortable if I raise and get multiple callers or get 3bet. Going to take a line that looks like KK+ in hopes I can take it down preflop. (Post flop plays out standard) Does that sound about right?

that sounds like someone who sucks postflop :D

sure there are many situations where limping is profitable in online play, not sure about live poker.

For example, if i join a table at a new website as an unknown, and limp in early position i am going to have a hugely profitable limp-reraise bluff as regs are going to be isolating me with between 20-30% of there range, but will probably fold all but a small % of that range to a limp-reraise as i am an unknown and they will assume i have AA. Unfotunately you can only do this proftably as an unknown.
I think that limp-reraise exmaple with AK is really awful tho.

On November 28 2011 18:00 Stroggoz wrote: sure there are many situations where limping is profitable in online play, not sure about live poker. For example, if i join a table at a new website as an unknown, and limp in early position i am going to have a hugely profitable limp-reraise bluff as regs are going to be isolating me with between 20-30% of there range, but will probably fold all but a small % of that range to a limp-reraise as i am an unknown and they will assume i have AA. Unfotunately you can only do this proftably as an unknown. I think that limp-reraise exmaple with AK is really awful tho.

That's an interesting example.

I think most limp reraises I see are awful. Kinda why I posted this, trying to keep an open mind on this open limping topic.

Anyone who watched the WSOP FT coverage this year wanna comment on Phil Collin's limping strat?

there is a reason why no body good limps in highstakes games online

50 hands of success from using a limping strategy doesnt compare with the millions and millions of $ won from raising.

On November 28 2011 18:38 wobbly_au wrote: there is a reason why no body good limps in highstakes games online

Phil Ivey open limps

prob in super specific situation for super specific reason, both of which doesnt warrant a retarded thread in reference in 50 hands played in a live tournament.

i'm surprised you don't limp often considering you play live

i only play 2/5 and only occasionally play 5/10 but i limp alot, most people aren't aggressive enough and punish you.

and i agree with you limping to keep pot small against people re isolate, or just raise you often is fine, at least imo. it's hard enough to play oop, limping just makes the pot smaller.

those specific hands that you mentioned about JT/QJ that phil collins limped (i didn't watch the main event) but i do the same when i limp utg as i don't really feel comfortable bloating the pot/opening yourself to getting re raised with JT/QJ and go ahead and KJ oop.

holy fuck im tired t.t

fuck it i go to bed

look only time limping works is when u play with a bunch of softies and even then raising is better.

this doesnt include very specific situations.

I open limp all the time in lots of different scenarios. There's so many things to consider, which I'm too lazy to get into since it's pretty obvious, but there are a lot of times where limping first in > opening in all sorts of positions.

I generally don't find these situations happen in games under 25/50 though, and more so as the stakes get higher and higher as the games tend to revolve around one or two bad players.

It should be something you shouldn't discount completely and should be part of your overall game plan.

This is all relating to live games mostly, I don't see these spots common in online games where stacks are shallower as opposed to certain live game scenarios where everyone at the table is sitting 500-1000BB deep to cover the fish in a big pot. These spots lead to very very interesting hands often.

and yes there are lots of situations where opening 10-15x BB first in can be very profitable too.

At least there's something to talk about in this thread.

^LOL

horribe post

Your post has no credible evidence limping is superior to opening. You give your opponents perfect leverage to just limp behind with good implied odds, they can choose to isiolate you whenever the fuck they want, they can literally shit on you with better information constantly, and as soon as people notice your limp reraising they widen their limp back range and isiolate with less polarized hands.

Their are better more sophisticated spots to limp, like on the button vs 2 aggressive blinds but subjectively always worse (or less +EV) then opening.

Cosmo, why do you think that the thought process you mentioned is better then just opening and facing a decision when you get 3 bet or playing a multi way pot with a unimproved AK?

One thing I want to mention is that their is 1 special occasion when you have a 80vpip whale directly to your left, and u can start limping and having him or others isolate you, and then you can have a very profitable call or squeeze.

On November 29 2011 02:40 casinocasino wrote: Your post has no credible evidence limping is superior to opening. You give your opponents perfect leverage to just limp behind with good implied odds, they can choose to isiolate you whenever the fuck they want, they can literally shit on you with better information constantly, and as soon as people notice your limp reraising they widen their limp back range and isiolate with less polarized hands. Their are better more sophisticated spots to limp, like on the button vs 2 aggressive blinds but subjectively always worse (or less +EV) then opening. Cosmo, why do you think that the thought process you mentioned is better then just opening and facing a decision when you get 3 bet or playing a multi way pot with a unimproved AK?

The thought process i mentioned is terrible, I was just trying to identify what people are thinking when they do it and thats what I came up with.

Trying to get to the root of all this limping non sense!!!