Clothes what - Page 7

On August 28 2010 16:35 zulu_nation8 wrote: I gave those examples to show people do stuff for a variety of reasons, the examples aren't meant to be taken literally. I also don't understand how following fashion is irrational? I just showed you some hypothetical reasons. Iop didn't explain very well why he spends a lot of money on clothes, his hobby certainly extends beyond mere function. But in response you and Loco basically called him a shallow, materialistic person for liking clothes. Maybe a bit too harsh? (I know he attacked you personally) Just because someone buys a $100+ pair of jeans doesn't mean his self-worth revolves around material possessions. People get disposable income, some like to buy shit with it. Who cares?

What do you mean, too harsh? Is it too harsh when iop judges me as a hippie with no sense of what is going on in the real world? I don't think so, as I don't take it personally. He also shouldn't take it personally if we disagree with his ways. On the other hand, I was making an observational statement by stating him to be a philistine. It's not a comfortable word to hear about oneself, but it's not revolting either. I am not misjudging his habits and trying to psychoanalyze him, and do agree with Baal that it is simple. It is always a socio-cultural thing and the consumerism is always something someone does with belief that it will make them happier individuals, otherwise they would not do it.

So, yes, he is materialistic. Is there a problem with that? Like you said, as long as he doesn't do any harm to anyone then I don't see the problem. Although when he does make a condescending statement like "the hippies who don't understand" it does hint at something. Baal is trying to educate/enlighten someone he has no authority over, which is silly. iop might very well be saying much harsher things about us in our back than us simply stating he has a materialistic lifestyle, which is nothing but the obvious. And who's going to be harshly judged the most; the dissident or the one who follows the trail his culture has traced for him? Let's be real here, anything I (or Baal) says he can just discard and tell himself we simply have no idea what's going on in the world and feel better about himself in an instant.

It's not a big deal anyhow, who cares indeed.

On August 28 2010 17:00 Night2o1 wrote: The human brain isn't built to be rational, and there's no rule that says everything in life has to be rational. Every person has their own idiosyncrasies and most of the time these individual traits are going to be harmless. Trying to run around ironing out everyone's personalities isn't going to help anything. Why can't you just let people in here discuss the topic they are interested in and GTFO instead of AW'ing the fuck out of every thread by bringing up an argument and turning the threads topic into 'what does baal think of this subject'.

nice one

On August 28 2010 17:00 Night2o1 wrote: The human brain isn't built to be rational, and there's no rule that says everything in life has to be rational. Every person has their own idiosyncrasies and most of the time these individual traits are going to be harmless. Trying to run around ironing out everyone's personalities isn't going to help anything. Why can't you just let people in here discuss the topic they are interested in and GTFO instead of AW'ing the fuck out of every thread by bringing up an argument and turning the threads topic into 'what does baal think of this subject'.

I completely agree with you about rationalization, but I believe you are mistaking if you believe that having a consumerist lifestyle has anything to do with one's own idiosyncrasies. It is not unique to his own, it is a borrowed habit coming from socio-cultural values. For that reason it is something that is embraced or abandoned. Baal is in a heroic mission in his mind to help people realize things about themselves that they are oblivious to, and sadly that is not his job and only arouses antagony. I have been guilty of the same. He doesn't mean any wrong with it.

i like the way the thread is going. reading this while having my early sunday morning cup of coffee

Yes what he said was harsh as well. But if you're politely disagreeing with someone you wouldn't use "philistine" or "materialistic." If you're flaming then say whatever, but you said those were observations so I interpret it as you do think people who follow fashion are philistines and materialistic even when those words aren't meant as insults.

If someone actually puts time and effort into having good taste in something, he'll actually be the opposite of a philistine. On the other hand, those who follow fashion might call those who don't philistines for not putting into any thought into how they dress. The general public don't care how they dress, so those who do are actually the minority.

Not that it really matters if you're mindlessly following the masses or saying fuck you to popular culture. I personally prefer the former because the latter is hard to do. You said people want material things because it makes them happy, otherwise they wouldn't do it. People do things for a variety of reasons beyond just happiness. Eudaimonia is a horribly ancient and naive concept. Even if people buy clothes to fulfill their lives, I don't see anything wrong with it. Are you gonna tell them how to live life and what happiness should be to them?

You and Baal are far from "dissidents" of culture just because you dislike throwing down for clothes. Transsexuals who are into S&M are dissidents, because their way of life and experience of society are truly different from just about every other person. You guys just disagree with fashion, not a big deal, we're entitled to our opinions.

On August 28 2010 17:41 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On August 28 2010 17:00 Night2o1 wrote: The human brain isn't built to be rational, and there's no rule that says everything in life has to be rational. Every person has their own idiosyncrasies and most of the time these individual traits are going to be harmless. Trying to run around ironing out everyone's personalities isn't going to help anything. Why can't you just let people in here discuss the topic they are interested in and GTFO instead of AW'ing the fuck out of every thread by bringing up an argument and turning the threads topic into 'what does baal think of this subject'. I completely agree with you about rationalization, but I believe you are mistaking if you believe that having a consumerist lifestyle has anything to do with one's own idiosyncrasies. It is not unique to his own, it is a borrowed habit coming from socio-cultural values. For that reason it is something that is embraced or abandoned. Baal is in a heroic mission in his mind to help people realize things about themselves that they are oblivious to, and sadly that is not his job and only arises antagony. I have been guilty of the same. He doesn't mean any wrong with it.

Nigga every value you have is a socio-cultural value. You can't NOT be cultured. If you were born in some sort of society you will be like everyone else. There's nothing to fight here. If you want to experience the limits of society, you can either commit some crimes or take LSD, those are Foucauldian limit-experiences society does not offer. If you are not doing any of those things then you are living just like everyone else. I don't see what people are oblivious to. No one can judge the value of values except for the individual.

On August 28 2010 16:35 zulu_nation8 wrote: I gave those examples to show people do stuff for a variety of reasons, the examples aren't meant to be taken literally. I also don't understand how following fashion is irrational? I just showed you some hypothetical reasons. Iop didn't explain very well why he spends a lot of money on clothes, his hobby certainly extends beyond mere function. But in response you and Loco basically called him a shallow, materialistic person for liking clothes. Maybe a bit too harsh? (I know he attacked you personally) Just because someone buys a $100+ pair of jeans doesn't mean his self-worth revolves around material possessions. People get disposable income, some like to buy shit with it. Who cares?

following fashion is irrational, it serves no purpose but to segregate people who dont (fit in a social circle) as i stated earlier fashion is clearly not about pure aesthetics since its whimsy and what is hideous today will be great in 1 year.

It is just like jewerly it serves not purpose but to show off wealth, class etc.

On August 28 2010 18:50 zulu_nation8 wrote: Show nested quote + On August 28 2010 17:41 Loco wrote:   On August 28 2010 17:00 Night2o1 wrote: The human brain isn't built to be rational, and there's no rule that says everything in life has to be rational. Every person has their own idiosyncrasies and most of the time these individual traits are going to be harmless. Trying to run around ironing out everyone's personalities isn't going to help anything. Why can't you just let people in here discuss the topic they are interested in and GTFO instead of AW'ing the fuck out of every thread by bringing up an argument and turning the threads topic into 'what does baal think of this subject'. I completely agree with you about rationalization, but I believe you are mistaking if you believe that having a consumerist lifestyle has anything to do with one's own idiosyncrasies. It is not unique to his own, it is a borrowed habit coming from socio-cultural values. For that reason it is something that is embraced or abandoned. Baal is in a heroic mission in his mind to help people realize things about themselves that they are oblivious to, and sadly that is not his job and only arises antagony. I have been guilty of the same. He doesn't mean any wrong with it. Nigga every value you have is a socio-cultural value. You can't NOT be cultured. If you were born in some sort of society you will be like everyone else. There's nothing to fight here. If you want to experience the limits of society, you can either commit some crimes or take LSD, those are Foucauldian limit-experiences society does not offer. If you are not doing any of those things then you are living just like everyone else. I don't see what people are oblivious to. No one can judge the value of values except for the individual.

this is absurd, while the "norm" is indeed to inherit irrational values from your culture that is stupid and the objective is to have none of them.

And i am not free of all of them but im free from many and ive freed myself from many indoctrinations like fashion, religion, government among many others.

Do you realize that so much of this worlds suffering comes from that?, wars, hatred, racism etc, they were values indoctrinated by their society and people with low level of awareness do not judge and take them as truths without questioning them.


Question fashion, tell me why it is reasonable to follow and devote a good chunk of your money on such a ridiculous thing.

On August 28 2010 18:38 zulu_nation8 wrote: Yes what he said was harsh as well. But if you're politely disagreeing with someone you wouldn't use "philistine" or "materialistic." If you're flaming then say whatever, but you said those were observations so I interpret it as you do think people who follow fashion are philistines and materialistic even when those words aren't meant as insults. If someone actually puts time and effort into having good taste in something, he'll actually be the opposite of a philistine. On the other hand, those who follow fashion might call those who don't philistines for not putting into any thought into how they dress. The general public don't care how they dress, so those who do are actually the minority. Not that it really matters if you're mindlessly following the masses or saying fuck you to popular culture. I personally prefer the former because the latter is hard to do. You said people want material things because it makes them happy, otherwise they wouldn't do it. People do things for a variety of reasons beyond just happiness. Eudaimonia is a horribly ancient and naive concept. Even if people buy clothes to fulfill their lives, I don't see anything wrong with it. Are you gonna tell them how to live life and what happiness should be to them? You and Baal are far from "dissidents" of culture just because you dislike throwing down for clothes. Transsexuals who are into S&M are dissidents, because their way of life and experience of society are truly different from just about every other person. You guys just disagree with fashion, not a big deal, we're entitled to our opinions.

There is no such thing as "you are entitled to your opinion" either your opinion is based on reason, evidence and logic, or your opinion is wrong.

I can have an opinion that the earth is flat, my opinion is ignorant, irrational... so what does it mean that im entitled to it? does it mean its right? does it mean i cannot be rebutted by somebody? so tell me.

Your example of S&M makes no sense, because they like some sexual practice theya re somehow dissidents and we are not? how so, i dissent from most of the status quo from society but i guess if i dont wear a leather mask i am not a dissident.

On August 28 2010 17:00 Night2o1 wrote: The human brain isn't built to be rational, and there's no rule that says everything in life has to be rational. Every person has their own idiosyncrasies and most of the time these individual traits are going to be harmless. Trying to run around ironing out everyone's personalities isn't going to help anything. Why can't you just let people in here discuss the topic they are interested in and GTFO instead of AW'ing the fuck out of every thread by bringing up an argument and turning the threads topic into 'what does baal think of this subject'.

most sufferint in this world comes from being irrational, racism, segregation, war, hatred, envy, power etc, and no i dont advocate a mechanical society y myself indulge in things that could be considered irrational like racing cars but that is a very different kind of irrationality to fashion because canalize critically fashion and its purposes as i stated earlier it is the same purpose of jewerly, dont you wonder why we pay for stupid a stupid shiny crystal with no real value whatsoever thousands and thousands?

On August 28 2010 19:10 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On August 28 2010 16:35 zulu_nation8 wrote: I gave those examples to show people do stuff for a variety of reasons, the examples aren't meant to be taken literally. I also don't understand how following fashion is irrational? I just showed you some hypothetical reasons. Iop didn't explain very well why he spends a lot of money on clothes, his hobby certainly extends beyond mere function. But in response you and Loco basically called him a shallow, materialistic person for liking clothes. Maybe a bit too harsh? (I know he attacked you personally) Just because someone buys a $100+ pair of jeans doesn't mean his self-worth revolves around material possessions. People get disposable income, some like to buy shit with it. Who cares? following fashion is irrational, it serves no purpose but to segregate people who dont (fit in a social circle) as i stated earlier fashion is clearly not about pure aesthetics since its whimsy and what is hideous today will be great in 1 year. It is just like jewerly it serves not purpose but to show off wealth, class etc.

maybe the purpose it serves them doesn't agree with your values. Irrational isn't the right word, their purpose merely follow a different kind of rationality. That's not to say humans do shit for the fuck of it all the time, maybe someone does like fashion just for the fuck of it. But usually people do have reasons for hobbies

People sometimes buy jewelery just to look good or maybe even as an investment, etc. Just because someone views life different than you doesn't make it less right.

winners aka TJ Maxx

On August 28 2010 19:15 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On August 28 2010 18:50 zulu_nation8 wrote:   On August 28 2010 17:41 Loco wrote:   On August 28 2010 17:00 Night2o1 wrote: The human brain isn't built to be rational, and there's no rule that says everything in life has to be rational. Every person has their own idiosyncrasies and most of the time these individual traits are going to be harmless. Trying to run around ironing out everyone's personalities isn't going to help anything. Why can't you just let people in here discuss the topic they are interested in and GTFO instead of AW'ing the fuck out of every thread by bringing up an argument and turning the threads topic into 'what does baal think of this subject'. I completely agree with you about rationalization, but I believe you are mistaking if you believe that having a consumerist lifestyle has anything to do with one's own idiosyncrasies. It is not unique to his own, it is a borrowed habit coming from socio-cultural values. For that reason it is something that is embraced or abandoned. Baal is in a heroic mission in his mind to help people realize things about themselves that they are oblivious to, and sadly that is not his job and only arises antagony. I have been guilty of the same. He doesn't mean any wrong with it. Nigga every value you have is a socio-cultural value. You can't NOT be cultured. If you were born in some sort of society you will be like everyone else. There's nothing to fight here. If you want to experience the limits of society, you can either commit some crimes or take LSD, those are Foucauldian limit-experiences society does not offer. If you are not doing any of those things then you are living just like everyone else. I don't see what people are oblivious to. No one can judge the value of values except for the individual. this is absurd, while the "norm" is indeed to inherit irrational values from your culture that is stupid and the objective is to have none of them. And i am not free of all of them but im free from many and ive freed myself from many indoctrinations like fashion, religion, government among many others. Do you realize that so much of this worlds suffering comes from that?, wars, hatred, racism etc, they were values indoctrinated by their society and people with low level of awareness do not judge and take them as truths without questioning them. Question fashion, tell me why it is reasonable to follow and devote a good chunk of your money on such a ridiculous thing.

I don't know why you're using logic to judge values, values always come before logic. For example I like clothes so I buy lots of it, that's my logic. You don't like clothes so you don't buy lots of it, that's your logic. It's not "irrational" to have different values, because there is no rational basis for any values.

Again, you're not free from any values, you just have DIFFERENT values. You can't really be free of values unless you stop living. If you hate the government you are an anarchist, if you hate religion you are an atheist, you are just taking different stances than other people on popular issues.

On the contrary, prejudice is intolerance which is what you are displaying. You don't like those who live life differently than you do and you feel justified, not just compelled, to change others.

On August 28 2010 19:24 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On August 28 2010 17:00 Night2o1 wrote: The human brain isn't built to be rational, and there's no rule that says everything in life has to be rational. Every person has their own idiosyncrasies and most of the time these individual traits are going to be harmless. Trying to run around ironing out everyone's personalities isn't going to help anything. Why can't you just let people in here discuss the topic they are interested in and GTFO instead of AW'ing the fuck out of every thread by bringing up an argument and turning the threads topic into 'what does baal think of this subject'. most sufferint in this world comes from being irrational, racism, segregation, war, hatred, envy, power etc, and no i dont advocate a mechanical society y myself indulge in things that could be considered irrational like racing cars but that is a very different kind of irrationality to fashion because canalize critically fashion and its purposes as i stated earlier it is the same purpose of jewerly, dont you wonder why we pay for stupid a stupid shiny crystal with no real value whatsoever thousands and thousands?

You need to re-evaluate your understanding of rationality. What you're actually talking about is values, which are never judged by rationality. There's no one ultimate mode of reason we all follow. What seems reasonable to you might not to another person because people view things differently. There's nothing "irrational" about racing cars. What do you consider rational then? What you actually mean by rational is "my values" and irrational to be "those values that disagree with mine."

On August 28 2010 19:20 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On August 28 2010 18:38 zulu_nation8 wrote: Yes what he said was harsh as well. But if you're politely disagreeing with someone you wouldn't use "philistine" or "materialistic." If you're flaming then say whatever, but you said those were observations so I interpret it as you do think people who follow fashion are philistines and materialistic even when those words aren't meant as insults. If someone actually puts time and effort into having good taste in something, he'll actually be the opposite of a philistine. On the other hand, those who follow fashion might call those who don't philistines for not putting into any thought into how they dress. The general public don't care how they dress, so those who do are actually the minority. Not that it really matters if you're mindlessly following the masses or saying fuck you to popular culture. I personally prefer the former because the latter is hard to do. You said people want material things because it makes them happy, otherwise they wouldn't do it. People do things for a variety of reasons beyond just happiness. Eudaimonia is a horribly ancient and naive concept. Even if people buy clothes to fulfill their lives, I don't see anything wrong with it. Are you gonna tell them how to live life and what happiness should be to them? You and Baal are far from "dissidents" of culture just because you dislike throwing down for clothes. Transsexuals who are into S&M are dissidents, because their way of life and experience of society are truly different from just about every other person. You guys just disagree with fashion, not a big deal, we're entitled to our opinions. There is no such thing as "you are entitled to your opinion" either your opinion is based on reason, evidence and logic, or your opinion is wrong. I can have an opinion that the earth is flat, my opinion is ignorant, irrational... so what does it mean that im entitled to it? does it mean its right? does it mean i cannot be rebutted by somebody? so tell me. Your example of S&M makes no sense, because they like some sexual practice theya re somehow dissidents and we are not? how so, i dissent from most of the status quo from society but i guess if i dont wear a leather mask i am not a dissident.

The status quo has nothing to do with liking nor disliking fashion so you're really not disagreeing with anything.

The stuff about reason, evidence, and logic, I don't wanna write the same post four times in a row so I'll just say, shit's more complicated than what you make it out to be. But the gist is basically none of this stuff has anything to do with logic.

On August 28 2010 18:38 zulu_nation8 wrote: Yes what he said was harsh as well. But if you're politely disagreeing with someone you wouldn't use "philistine" or "materialistic." If you're flaming then say whatever, but you said those were observations so I interpret it as you do think people who follow fashion are philistines and materialistic even when those words aren't meant as insults. If someone actually puts time and effort into having good taste in something, he'll actually be the opposite of a philistine. On the other hand, those who follow fashion might call those who don't philistines for not putting into any thought into how they dress. The general public don't care how they dress, so those who do are actually the minority. Not that it really matters if you're mindlessly following the masses or saying fuck you to popular culture. I personally prefer the former because the latter is hard to do. You said people want material things because it makes them happy, otherwise they wouldn't do it. People do things for a variety of reasons beyond just happiness. Eudaimonia is a horribly ancient and naive concept. Even if people buy clothes to fulfill their lives, I don't see anything wrong with it. Are you gonna tell them how to live life and what happiness should be to them? You and Baal are far from "dissidents" of culture just because you dislike throwing down for clothes. Transsexuals who are into S&M are dissidents, because their way of life and experience of society are truly different from just about every other person. You guys just disagree with fashion, not a big deal, we're entitled to our opinions.

I was returning the favor re: not being polite. It's not flaming. I didn't say people who follow fasion are absolute philistines, although I would think it is so in most of the cases, and my observations go beyond just that fact, because both iop and I have been on here for long before this argument, so they are based on more than just this thread.

We must have a completely different definition of a philistine if you believe that those who follow fashion could soundly call one who doesn't a philistine for that reason alone. It makes literally no sense at all. Yes, they might be in the minority, but how does this makes them not be philistines? How does being in the minority and caring about your appearance more than others indicate a real appreciation of aesthetics and philosophical/spiritual values? I don't get you at all.

You are entitled to your opinion re: Eudaimonia, but I doubt you can give me a solid argument as to how it is a naive concept. If you don't see anything wrong with "people buying clothes to fulfill their lives" it is because you are one of them. While I do see something wrong with that, it is only wrong for myself. I have my own way and people have theirs, I'm not here to tell people how to live. You are horribly naive if you believe I ever try to convert people to my own ideals. To each man his own meat and drink, but better to go astray than follow.

And that last thing about us not being dissidents is just a joke, really. I can't believe an intelligent person like you could even say that. Baal is an anarchist and you're saying he is not a dissident? And you know nothing of me and my experiences with society yet still posit such a ridiculous statement. I'm at a loss for words on this one.

On August 28 2010 18:50 zulu_nation8 wrote: Show nested quote + On August 28 2010 17:41 Loco wrote:   On August 28 2010 17:00 Night2o1 wrote: The human brain isn't built to be rational, and there's no rule that says everything in life has to be rational. Every person has their own idiosyncrasies and most of the time these individual traits are going to be harmless. Trying to run around ironing out everyone's personalities isn't going to help anything. Why can't you just let people in here discuss the topic they are interested in and GTFO instead of AW'ing the fuck out of every thread by bringing up an argument and turning the threads topic into 'what does baal think of this subject'. I completely agree with you about rationalization, but I believe you are mistaking if you believe that having a consumerist lifestyle has anything to do with one's own idiosyncrasies. It is not unique to his own, it is a borrowed habit coming from socio-cultural values. For that reason it is something that is embraced or abandoned. Baal is in a heroic mission in his mind to help people realize things about themselves that they are oblivious to, and sadly that is not his job and only arises antagony. I have been guilty of the same. He doesn't mean any wrong with it. Nigga every value you have is a socio-cultural value. You can't NOT be cultured. If you were born in some sort of society you will be like everyone else. There's nothing to fight here. If you want to experience the limits of society, you can either commit some crimes or take LSD, those are Foucauldian limit-experiences society does not offer. If you are not doing any of those things then you are living just like everyone else. I don't see what people are oblivious to. No one can judge the value of values except for the individual.

This is untrue. I agree that we are formed by those very values in our most sentient period, but not beyond. Our 'Ids' at birth are malleable by direction, discipline, transference, never by abuse or suppression. In addition, we inherit a basic pattern from our chromosomes and genes which is our essential individuality and also rectifiable. And there is the most potent of all - 'environment', which includes parents and everything associative and inflicted upon us at that period. All our early controls are forged and forced on us from it. These three fundamentals are in constant impact creating experiences, forming our complexities, frustrations, desires, good, evil, hate, temperament, character and the direction of our individuality, ethics and principles. After the dangerous transition from adolescence comes the opportunity to break or not the harness of these controls. I am not like everyone else because I have broken them; but I make no virtue of it.

Philistine to me is basically devoid of culture, not having taste, etc. Fashion is an aesthetic discipline. So having taste in clothes, just like having taste in art, is the opposite of philistine in that sense. I understand your point of materialistic behavior vs spiritual values, but caring about clothes does not necessarily equal materialistic behavior. People who are into fashion can be materialistic. But by default, fashion requires an aesthetic sense. So philistine wouldn't be the word I think of to describe people who are into fashion.

I can write a lot about why I don't agree Eudaimonia is the telos of human life but we should probably save it for another thread. I personally don't spend a lot on clothes, I am not defending fashion because I am a materialist. I actually don't know anything about fashion. I just don't believe people who condemn this lifestyle have any higher wisdom.

I wasn't talking about Baal being an anarchist, and I obviously don't know how you live. I was just making the point that not liking clothes can hardly be considered dissident to anything. Most people in the world don't have the means to care about how they dress. Most people in the world live under a government though so Baal's stance would be considered somewhat unique.

On August 28 2010 20:35 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On August 28 2010 18:50 zulu_nation8 wrote:   On August 28 2010 17:41 Loco wrote:   On August 28 2010 17:00 Night2o1 wrote: The human brain isn't built to be rational, and there's no rule that says everything in life has to be rational. Every person has their own idiosyncrasies and most of the time these individual traits are going to be harmless. Trying to run around ironing out everyone's personalities isn't going to help anything. Why can't you just let people in here discuss the topic they are interested in and GTFO instead of AW'ing the fuck out of every thread by bringing up an argument and turning the threads topic into 'what does baal think of this subject'. I completely agree with you about rationalization, but I believe you are mistaking if you believe that having a consumerist lifestyle has anything to do with one's own idiosyncrasies. It is not unique to his own, it is a borrowed habit coming from socio-cultural values. For that reason it is something that is embraced or abandoned. Baal is in a heroic mission in his mind to help people realize things about themselves that they are oblivious to, and sadly that is not his job and only arises antagony. I have been guilty of the same. He doesn't mean any wrong with it. Nigga every value you have is a socio-cultural value. You can't NOT be cultured. If you were born in some sort of society you will be like everyone else. There's nothing to fight here. If you want to experience the limits of society, you can either commit some crimes or take LSD, those are Foucauldian limit-experiences society does not offer. If you are not doing any of those things then you are living just like everyone else. I don't see what people are oblivious to. No one can judge the value of values except for the individual. This is untrue. I agree that we are formed by those very values in our most sentient period, but not beyond. Our 'Ids' at birth are malleable by direction, discipline, transference, never by abuse or suppression. In addition, we inherit a basic pattern from our chromosomes and genes which is our essential individuality and also rectifiable. And there is the most potent of all - 'environment', which includes parents and everything associative and inflicted upon us at that period. All our early controls are forged and forced on us from it. These three fundamentals are in constant impact creating experiences, forming our complexities, frustrations, desires, good, evil, hate, temperament, character and the direction of our individuality, ethics and principles. After the dangerous transition from adolescence comes the opportunity to break or not the harness of these controls. I am not like everyone else because I have broken them; but I make no virtue of it.

I don't disagree with the first part.

You clearly do regard breaking free of traditional values as a virtue. If you are not a criminal and you are not insane, you have inherited most of the societal values everyone else has. So in my perspective, you have not broken anything, neither has anyone else who posts on this forum. You may have taken on different values than the ones you were raised on, and doing so may be an achievement in your own right. But you have not transgressed the boundaries everyone lives within. You sleep in a house, you pay your taxes, you are a functional member of society.

From both a personal and philosophical point of view, I'd much rather enjoy life than fight it. There are too many cynics and not enough ones who are grateful.

On August 28 2010 21:40 zulu_nation8 wrote: Philistine to me is basically devoid of culture, not having taste, etc. Fashion is an aesthetic discipline. So having taste in clothes, just like having taste in art, is the opposite of philistine in that sense. I understand your point of materialistic behavior vs spiritual values, but caring about clothes does not necessarily equal materialistic behavior. People who are into fashion can be materialistic. But by default, fashion requires an aesthetic sense. So philistine wouldn't be the word I think of to describe people who are into fashion. I can write a lot about why I don't agree Eudaimonia is the telos of human life but we should probably save it for another thread. I personally don't spend a lot on clothes, I am not defending fashion because I am a materialist. I actually don't know anything about fashion. I just don't believe people who condemn this lifestyle have any higher wisdom. I wasn't talking about Baal being an anarchist, and I obviously don't know how you live. I was just making the point that not liking clothes can hardly be considered dissident to anything. Most people in the world don't have the means to care about how they dress. Most people in the world live under a government though so Baal's stance would be considered somewhat unique.

My definition of it is more particular, taken from wikipedia which describes it well:
"A person called a Philistine (in the relevant sense) is said to despise or undervalue art, beauty, intellectual content, or spiritual values. Philistines are also said to be materialistic, to favor conventional social values unthinkingly, and to favor forms of art that have a cheap and easy appeal (e.g. kitsch)."

To me, it is very right-minded to think that the people who care about clothes and are into fashion to the point of being condescending to those of us who do not value it, do exhibit those traits and perfectly fit the definition.

I don't even know why Eudaimonia was even brought into the subject. The point that I was making and that you took as Eudaimonia out of context can be ascribed very easily as such: How do they feel after buying expensive jewelry or expensive clothing? Do they feel unhappy, or are they indifferent, or are they happy? If they are happy, then it seems rather obvious to me than at least part of the purpose in the purchase was to make yourself happy. I don't think you will disagree with that.

Again, I do not condemn such a lifestyle. To each his own. I am not on a mission here, I condone much more than I ever condemn.

Of course not valuing fashion doesn't make me a dissident, but being a dissident makes me not value fashion, and being a dissident has shaped my life as it is today.