Thorladen cheating?

if this is real this is pretty grimy. always seemed like an older stand up dude when he posted here.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/...-sorel-mizzi-thorladen-x-mttc-859424/

ugh read thhrough the chat log, seems v. shady if real

should be easy for someone here who knows either of them to confirm if its their writing style

yikes

its virtually confirmed on 2+2 Mttc that it is a real chat log.

Thorladen response

" I have not engaged in this activity with Sorel. I would not engage
in this activity ever. I am voluntarily cooperating completely with Full Tilt
in an investigation of these alleged activities.
thorladen is offline Report Post Reply With Quote"

So the chat did happen but he says they didn't go through with it basically.

but who knows

Poker players will do anything for money. What is surprising here?

So thorladen baited the trap and then unloaded all this stuff to 2+2?

Its not like there isnt a gang of chinese kids using it to grind SnGs and bank $500k/year right now on every major site.

Convo is 1.5-2 years old & was apparently sent out to all the players that were supposed to be involved and somehow was leaked i'm assuming not by thorladen & zangbezan24.

cliffs?

sorel stay grimy

gunna go w/ thorladen isnt a cheater if i had to guess

wow this is pretty nuts

The stupidest thing about this is that it basically describes in detail how to set-up a multi-accounting empire. Not that it would be difficult to figure out but 2+2 should have blacked out some of the technical information where appropriate. Like really it's basically a how-to chat-log.

I'll reserve any judgment until the investigation is done and over with. The chat log itself looks like it would be pretty easy to fake but apparently some others have commented on this LP thread that there is evidence which further contributes to the credibility that the chat log is in fact real?

With the amount of information poker sites grab from our computers I think it'd be pretty easy to figure out if they use remote software, if it's being accessed while poker is being played, and if there's a poker office with different IPs. If it's from the same ISP in the same area all the IP addresses are going to be pretty similar. The problem is none of that proves anything since people remote into their computers all the time, whether to play poker or do something else and I know there are many "poker houses". Something a little better than a chat log of questionable authenticity will need to be brought forth.
One thing is if network scans were done (I know PS does it, don't know about FTP) then they would know all the connecting IP addresses to that computer. If the same one IP address was connected to all the computers of the accounts in question while they were being played on it would certainly be suspicious.

On August 23 2010 18:43 Bejamin1 wrote: The stupidest thing about this is that it basically describes in detail how to set-up a multi-accounting empire. Not that it would be difficult to figure out but 2+2 should have blacked out some of the technical information where appropriate. Like really it's basically a how-to chat-log. I'll reserve any judgment until the investigation is done and over with. The chat log itself looks like it would be pretty easy to fake but apparently some others have commented on this LP thread that there is evidence which further contributes to the credibility that the chat log is in fact real?

Ya, thought it would show a bunch of people how to do it also.

thorladen wrote in the thread linked from in the OP in the 2+2 thread.
His comment:

I have not engaged in this activity with Sorel. I would not engage in this activity ever. I am voluntarily cooperating completely with Full Tilt in an investigation of these alleged activities.

from: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61/...den-857685-post21091572/#post21091572

This just proves that you can't judge anyone.

On August 23 2010 20:15 concrescence wrote: Show nested quote + [B thorladen wrote in the thread linked from in the OP in the 2+2 thread. His comment: [quote]I have not engaged in this activity with Sorel. I would not engage in this activity ever. I am voluntarily cooperating completely with Full Tilt in an investigation of these alleged activities. from: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61/...den-857685-post21091572/#post21091572

sop basically he entertained the idea thought it was a good one but didnt end up doing it...idk what to make of that really, I wonder if Sorel ended up following through with it

any smart person who is decent with computers can figure out the shit in here. that doesn't make thor a cheater

On August 23 2010 23:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: any smart person who is decent with computers can figure out the shit in here. that doesn't make thor a cheater

[ ] he figured it out
[x] he discussed seriously about doing this with Sorel
[?]he actually cheated.

Ya but its just like that PTR security article. People who weren't thinking about it now are and its more of a threat than it used to be.

Sure sounds like Thorladen is willing to sell his integrity for money. Sounds like Thor knows that Roman would, too.

Hearsay, of course. Both counts. But I am curious for an explanation.


Glad I randomly decided to check LP.net this is quite the drama.

Why are people so certain he actually discussed it? It looks to me like that conversation would be easy to fabricate from anywhere. I see a few people in the thread on 2+2 are saying that because he didn't outright claim the chat-log was fake in his first statement that it means he's guilty but I think that's just ridiculous speculation. People should wait to judge until the investigation is complete.

On August 24 2010 00:36 Bejamin1 wrote: Why are people so certain he actually discussed it? It looks to me like that conversation would be easy to fabricate from anywhere. I see a few people in the thread on 2+2 are saying that because he didn't outright claim the chat-log was fake in his first statement that it means he's guilty but I think that's just ridiculous speculation. People should wait to judge until the investigation is complete.

If that's fabricated it's incredibly impressive they've even got all kinds of old man style typos in there, and they also know a lot about both individuals.

Also, surely thor would come out straight away and be clear by saying 'this is a completely fabricated chat log' instead of a pretty vague 'I have not engaged in this activity with Sorel.' which doesn't really deny the chat took place.

On August 24 2010 00:43 concrescence wrote: Also, surely thor would come out straight away and be clear by saying 'this is a completely fabricated chat log' instead of a pretty vague 'I have not engaged in this activity with Sorel.' which doesn't really deny the chat took place.

exactly

These people gatta watch The Wire. Don't talk on phones or computers, meet in a park to discuss business. All in the game yo, all in the game.

you guys are all acting like you would take the high road when faced with a similar situation.

ask yourselves this

if someone you trusted told you they are short on money but have a site that they can see hole cards without being detected and wants you to invest in them part of the bankroll for profit shares, would you not at least hear them out and be interested to determine if it's worth the questionable ethics and the risks?

It's not quite to the extreme in thor's case but honestly he did nothing more than to be intrigued and ask for more details before making a decision on something that could give him a good return on money invested.

In poker and all businesses shit like this in the grey area happens all the time behind closed doors, people just give a shit when it's outed and they were not the ones who had this opportunity and act like they would've turned the other cheek.

Greed is a powerful force.

On August 24 2010 02:06 kaboom wrote: you guys are all acting like you would take the high road when faced with a similar situation. ask yourselves this if someone you trusted told you they are short on money but have a site that they can see hole cards without being detected and wants you to invest in them part of the bankroll for profit shares, would you not at least hear them out and be interested to determine if it's worth the questionable ethics and the risks? It's not quite to the extreme in thor's case but honestly he did nothing more than to be intrigued and ask for more details before making a decision on something that could give him a good return on money invested. In poker and all businesses shit like this in the grey area happens all the time behind closed doors, people just give a shit when it's outed and they were not the ones who had this opportunity and act like they would've turned the other cheek. Greed is a powerful force.

So you're saying you'd take the opportunity.
I wouldn't.

In a situation where you can easily get away with cheating:

- Virtually everyone cheats, but only a little. People still want to feel good about themselves and think they are morally sound people.
- A very small percentage of people cheats a lot.

So, how many of you would turn down the opportunity depends on two things. One, whether you are part of a really small minority of despicable people who basically don't care about morality. Two, how many of you think this is a "little cheat", "white lie" whatever, or something big that you can't reconcile with your conscience.

On August 24 2010 01:56 mrpav.com wrote: These people gatta watch The Wire. Don't talk on phones or computers, meet in a park to discuss business. All in the game yo, all in the game.

Absolutely. If this is not fake it's pretty surprising judgement to let a number of people up for a scam hold this kind of evidence on you.

On August 24 2010 00:43 concrescence wrote: Also, surely thor would come out straight away and be clear by saying 'this is a completely fabricated chat log' instead of a pretty vague 'I have not engaged in this activity with Sorel.' which doesn't really deny the chat took place.

If he's consulted a lawyer he'd probably have been told to say nothing. The statement he did release looks pretty careful with it's wording if you ask me. The statement says "I did not participate in these activities" which could easily include the alleged chat-log.

It's also not that difficult to do. All you need is one person who knows both of them quite well and has a grudge against them for any reason. I'm not saying it's even unlikely the chat log existed but it's certainly within the realm of possibility that it was made up. Let the investigation run its course instead of making judgments without all the facts is all I'm saying really.

Yeah it could include that but if the chat log is a fabrication he probably wouldn't react that way. It looks more like the chat log is genuine and its his way of defending himself. But you're right obv its a mistake to jump to conclusions.

anyone thinking that chatlog is fake is delusional ffs -_-


also lol @ calling this "gray area", using software to remotely control computers to multi-acount simultaneously is not a fucking gray area, its plain cheating.

The crazy thing is thor admits he has alot of money. If ur living a good life and dont have to worry about money why would you even CONSIDER doin this Kaboom. If a good friend of mine told me too cheat i'd tell him to gtfo

yup, cheaters gonna cheat

Baal for president ;p

errr... Baal for el presidente

On August 24 2010 06:16 morph1 wrote: Baal for president ;p

On August 24 2010 06:17 morph1 wrote: errr... Baal for el presidente

+1 Baal for moral police

Baal has become a much much better poster since he lost his mod status. Cause and effect? Idk, just saying

I was a little bit of a fanboy of thors when I got into LP bc his interview is pretty badass. After he, in my mind, cheated LP out of a video he disrespected himself. He made a fair bet with nazgul. Lost, had to be needled for 1 or 1.5 years or w/e to make a video and then he puts one out where he's drunk and wastes all of our time.

I can't think like he does, because, I can't fathom how he would have shady morals. Most scammers and such are often motivated at least partially by desperation, not just greed. Unless he does give the community a real response, I must assume that he values a surplus of money more than his word, his friends or anything else, maybe even more than his family.

Roman is in an unfortunate position but I think an honest response from him should be forthcoming as well.

Remember, Thor used to work on Wall St. This seems a bit like inside info/ trading to me. At least the part about knowing Mizzi would do it, and invest in him.

The part that is most disturbing to me, at least, is when Thor mentions how he is able and willing to take over a tourney or ghost as well, that it does not just have to be Mizzi. So even if someone was to say, "Oh, he is just interested in investing in it" I would have to point out that he said he would be able to be active in it, and did volunteer Roman as well.

Is this some sort of trend? The top players all tend to be top level cheats as well? I am not saying Thor did in fact cheat, but a lot of other top players have gotten in trouble for all sorts of shady practices.

It is also mentioned in the chat that if the practice was used, they could set it up to be 'untraceable.' Whether or not this is true, I am not sure. Assuming they are correct in that assessment, though, why wouldn't Thor cooperate fully? He would 'have nothing to hide' since there would be no evidence anyway.

In the USA, if they were talking about something else, like, say, a bank heist or a murder, they would be guilty of conspiracy. They would still face criminal charges.

I idolized Thor and liked to watch him play when I got a chance. I was also excited when I saw he won a nice live tourney in Atlantic City a while back.

I hope he is innocent. I hope he was merely entertaining the idea, but adhered to the rules, maintained a high level of moral and ethical values. I hope he really would not have a clear conscience if he was to cheat, and bankroll other cheaters, as he said he would in that chat.

I hope Thor and Roman also address LP to put our minds at ease. I wish I could agree with Frinkx and go with "Thor isn't a cheater," but non-cheaters do not spend time detailing and planning elaborate ways to cheat with other known cheaters (at least in my experience).

On August 24 2010 07:03 Steal City wrote: Baal has become a much much better poster since he lost his mod status. Cause and effect? Idk, just saying I was a little bit of a fanboy of thors when I got into LP bc his interview is pretty badass. After he, in my mind, cheated LP out of a video he disrespected himself. He made a fair bet with nazgul. Lost, had to be needled for 1 or 1.5 years or w/e to make a video and then he puts one out where he's drunk and wastes all of our time. I can't think like he does, because, I can't fathom how he would have shady morals. Most scammers and such are often motivated at least partially by desperation, not just greed. Unless he does give the community a real response, I must assume that he values a surplus of money more than his word, his friends or anything else, maybe even more than his family. Roman is in an unfortunate position but I think an honest response from him should be forthcoming as well.

+1 to this entire post.

that is if he did indeed was actually involved in the chat log ( which it seems he is )

On August 24 2010 05:26 Baal wrote: anyone thinking that chatlog is fake is delusional ffs -_- also lol @ calling this "gray area", using software to remotely control computers to multi-acount simultaneously is not a fucking gray area, its plain cheating.

qft

pretty unfair that they get to play the equivalent of 400 sundays per year depending on how many accounts and i only get 52.

On August 24 2010 05:26 Baal wrote: anyone thinking that chatlog is fake is delusional ffs -_- also lol @ calling this "gray area", using software to remotely control computers to multi-acount simultaneously is not a fucking gray area, its plain cheating.

never said it was, saying in general things of this nature.

Also if I was thorladen and had been printing money in my mountain home for the past 5 years no I wouldn't even consider this shit. From what I know of Thor I doubt he took any part in this beyond talking about it on msn/aim.

I posted this on 2+2:


"Even though im not a large part of this story, I feel like I have some information to offer and should respond. I would be shocked if this convo was 100% legit, seems like it did happen, I cant comment on Sorel as I dont know him well, but I have never seen Thorladen so much as consider cheating in the past (and ive known him very well for 4+ years). He is a very stand-up individual from everything ive seen over the years.

Thorladen never approached me about this which adds further skepticism in my eyes.

Don't know how I can prove what im saying... but ill gladly let someone reputable go through any transfer logs/chat logs I have."


I am almost 100% convinced that the chatlog is doctored in a way to make the people involved look bad, I had heard second hand over a year ago that someone was trying to extort Sorel. Thorladen may have humored Sorel if he was approached with such an offer just as any curious individual might, but there is no chance the conversation went down like that based on many years of knowing him. I would give 100:1 to anyone that he was in no way involved in any wrongdoing.

On August 24 2010 10:05 JonnyCosMo wrote: Show nested quote + On August 24 2010 05:26 Baal wrote: anyone thinking that chatlog is fake is delusional ffs -_- also lol @ calling this "gray area", using software to remotely control computers to multi-acount simultaneously is not a fucking gray area, its plain cheating. qft

PS this is absolute crazy talk, how can you have 0 suspicion of a chatlog that comes out anonymously, with no evidence to support it years after a conversation took place.

On August 24 2010 17:33 Roman wrote: + Show Spoiler + I posted this on 2+2: "Even though im not a large part of this story, I feel like I have some information to offer and should respond. I would be shocked if this convo was 100% legit, seems like it did happen, I cant comment on Sorel as I dont know him well, but I have never seen Thorladen so much as consider cheating in the past (and ive known him very well for 4+ years). He is a very stand-up individual from everything ive seen over the years. Thorladen never approached me about this which adds further skepticism in my eyes. Don't know how I can prove what im saying... but ill gladly let someone reputable go through any transfer logs/chat logs I have." I am almost 100% convinced that the chatlog is doctored in a way to make the people involved look bad, I had heard second hand over a year ago that someone was trying to extort Sorel. Thorladen may have humored Sorel if he was approached with such an offer just as any curious individual might, but there is no chance the conversation went down like that based on many years of knowing him. I would give 100:1 to anyone that he was in no way involved in any wrongdoing.

GL going up against an general consensus.

On August 24 2010 17:35 Roman wrote: Show nested quote + On August 24 2010 10:05 JonnyCosMo wrote:   On August 24 2010 05:26 Baal wrote: anyone thinking that chatlog is fake is delusional ffs -_- also lol @ calling this "gray area", using software to remotely control computers to multi-acount simultaneously is not a fucking gray area, its plain cheating. qft PS this is absolute crazy talk, how can you have 0 suspicion of a chatlog that comes out anonymously, with no evidence to support it years after a conversation took place.

why hasnt Thorladen said that the conversation is doctored?

On August 24 2010 17:33 Roman wrote: I am almost 100% convinced that the chatlog is doctored in a way to make the people involved look bad, I had heard second hand over a year ago that someone was trying to extort Sorel. Thorladen may have humored Sorel if he was approached with such an offer just as any curious individual might, but there is no chance the conversation went down like that based on many years of knowing him. I would give 100:1 to anyone that he was in no way involved in any wrongdoing.

They're certainly not making themselves look better with their responses. Thorladen basically writes 3 sentences while his name is BRUTALLY slandered, not even denying the chat is false. Mizzi, after making a huge deal that he has to defend himself, says that the chat is bits and pieces from several conversations, but also does not deny the content itself. Perhaps they are innocent, but they're doing such a horrible job of showing it.

Why won't they just post the genuine chat logs?
Would a person trying to tarnish their reputation really go through all the effort of collecting pieces of several, different conversations, putting them in context (I'd imagine this would be a bitch to do), changing words here and there?

I am inclined to believe Roman and have no reason not to. It sounds like Thor didn't in fact approach him with this idea.

What's weird is that Roman (i assume you've tried) can't even get an answer out of Thor (who says they are like family).

The 2p2 views regarding Thor's and Sorel's response seem very well founded.

On August 24 2010 18:13 Steal City wrote: I am inclined to believe Roman and have no reason not to. It sounds like Thor didn't in fact approach him with this idea. What's weird is that Roman (i assume you've tried) can't even get an answer out of Thor (who says they are like family). The 2p2 views regarding Thor's and Sorel's response seem very well founded.

On August 24 2010 18:13 Steal City wrote: I am inclined to believe Roman and have no reason not to. It sounds like Thor didn't in fact approach him with this idea. What's weird is that Roman (i assume you've tried) can't even get an answer out of Thor (who says they are like family). The 2p2 views regarding Thor's and Sorel's response seem very well founded.

I have talked to thor about it, its not my business to speak on anyones behalf. I respect his decision to respond the way he did and could see myself doing the same in his situation. I dont think its that hard to imagine why someone would respond that way when they are innocent.

Well I never thought Thor was lying when he claimed he never cheated, but I wouldn't find it at all surprising if Thor was nice and humoring to Sorel because he overly values money and thus overly values a relationship with Sorel(even though he's a scumbag). Not a big sin, of course - just would say something about his character.

All this is conjecture of course I am just making some guesses based off of what I have seen of the character of various human beings.

Personally I would never let this shit stand if it was inaccurate, I would explain what is a lie and what wasn't. But maybe Thor follows the advice of a lawyer or something.

Thorladen didnt say the convo is fake
PS is also investigating him
Any common logic would lead to the fact that the chatlog is real ...
However that chatlog doesnt make him guilty of anything tbh

I can see Thorladen being innocent. I've humored conversations before without being serious about it.

I don't see how Sorel can prove himself innocent here with the prior reputation of dirtbaggery.

On August 24 2010 18:38 Roman wrote: Show nested quote + On August 24 2010 18:13 Steal City wrote: I am inclined to believe Roman and have no reason not to. It sounds like Thor didn't in fact approach him with this idea. What's weird is that Roman (i assume you've tried) can't even get an answer out of Thor (who says they are like family). The 2p2 views regarding Thor's and Sorel's response seem very well founded. I have talked to thor about it, its not my business to speak on anyones behalf. I respect his decision to respond the way he did and could see myself doing the same in his situation. I dont think its that hard to imagine why someone would respond that way when they are innocent.

you talked to thor but you don't know if thor was humouring or not???
(imo doesn't seem like he was)
I understand you not wanting to talk on someone's behalf but then you're making guesses at what they were thinking...

I just find it weird that he didn't even tell you what he was thinking when he wrote that. You talked to him yet you don't even know if he was humouring... crazy

http://www.coinflip.com/news/sorel-mizzi-centre-another-controversy.html

cliffnotes: sorel was found guilty in 2007 of taking over a friends account in the late stages of a tournament.

damn its like every 3 weeks someone is being pinned for something

Even though the chat log seemed very legit. One thing that seemed weird is that in the chat log, is that Thorladen seemed very worried that this could leak somehow, but on the other hand discusses it in chat, which most likely is logged.

If he was as paranoid as it seemed, why would he openly discuss it in chat with somebody that didn't have a very good reputation to start with. Somebody could easily sniff around in Mizzi's computer and get a hold of the log, or he could set himself up to be blackmailed in the future. Just seems strange to me that a smart person like Thorladen would do that.

i dont see why everyone is criticising thors first response. these are pretty serious charges and its probably going to take a long time to prepare a comprehensive response. it would be detrimental to give a response that left out even one thing that could have been explained with a little more time

as for thor himself. while i dont talk to him much anymore (i guess i did 2 years ago) hes always been a great guy and i seriously doubt he would ever do this.

On August 23 2010 18:43 Bejamin1 wrote: The stupidest thing about this is that it basically describes in detail how to set-up a multi-accounting empire. Not that it would be difficult to figure out but 2+2 should have blacked out some of the technical information where appropriate. Like really it's basically a how-to chat-log. I'll reserve any judgment until the investigation is done and over with. The chat log itself looks like it would be pretty easy to fake but apparently some others have commented on this LP thread that there is evidence which further contributes to the credibility that the chat log is in fact real?

No, this is such basic windows stuff that everyone ought to know it. If this is a revelation to you get into windows fast, disable remote access and lock your administrative account.

On August 24 2010 22:18 PoorUser wrote: i dont see why everyone is thors first response. these are pretty serious charges and its probably going to take a long time to prepare a comprehensive response. it would be detrimental to give a response that left out even one thing that could have been explained with a little more time as for thor himself. while i dont talk to him much anymore (i guess i did 2 years ago) hes always been a great guy and i seriously doubt he would ever do this.

This.

It's ridiculous how many people instantly assume the chat-log is real simply because Thor didn't come out guns blazing and saying it's all a farce. He released a carefully worded statement that he was not involved in any of these activities and is cooperating fully with the investigation. It's standard legal advice to say nothing if you are arrested before you've spoken to a lawyer. Well it's not any different when someone accuses you of the sort of wrongdoing that Thor has been accused of. It's entirely acceptable that he takes his time with his response as PoorUser explained.

Let the investigation proceed and judge the results of those proceedings accordingly. Trying to make snap judgments based on some easy to fake chat-log is hilarious. This is a huge part of the reason so many people have been wrongfully convicted of crimes and later released when DNA evidence cleared them. People on the jury take situations like this and then claim "common sense" would say that the person is guilty. I'm not on anybody's side about this issue. I couldn't give a wet slap whether he's guilty or innocent. I just fall on the side of letting the investigation complete itself before passing judgment. There is no need to shit all over someones reputation before it's actually been proven whether he's guilty or not.

If it comes out later that the OP modified the chat-log in an attempt to slander these individuals he could quite easily be slapped with a counter-suit for slander. Just let the situation play out before you judge. It's not like all won't be revealed relatively shortly when the investigation concludes itself.

On August 24 2010 22:45 Snaggle wrote: Show nested quote + On August 23 2010 18:43 Bejamin1 wrote: The stupidest thing about this is that it basically describes in detail how to set-up a multi-accounting empire. Not that it would be difficult to figure out but 2+2 should have blacked out some of the technical information where appropriate. Like really it's basically a how-to chat-log. I'll reserve any judgment until the investigation is done and over with. The chat log itself looks like it would be pretty easy to fake but apparently some others have commented on this LP thread that there is evidence which further contributes to the credibility that the chat log is in fact real? No, this is such basic windows stuff that everyone ought to know it. If this is a revelation to you get into windows fast, disable remote access and lock your administrative account.

The point isn't that the information is basic - it quite obviously is - the point is to someone who such an idea never would have occurred to the alleged conversation is a how-to which upon reading it a bunch of people might go "Hey I'd like to play 4 Sunday Millions too, lol why not?" or whatever. I can 100% guarantee you that at least one person after reading that chat-log will try out a multiple account system. It's the same reason that when con artists are arrested they don't often post the details of their scams to the public. It's not that the scams are so complex nobody could ever figure them out for themselves. It's that it doesn't do the public any good to put a bunch of how-to scam ideas out there..

On August 24 2010 22:51 Bejamin1 wrote: Show nested quote + On August 24 2010 22:18 PoorUser wrote: i dont see why everyone is thors first response. these are pretty serious charges and its probably going to take a long time to prepare a comprehensive response. it would be detrimental to give a response that left out even one thing that could have been explained with a little more time as for thor himself. while i dont talk to him much anymore (i guess i did 2 years ago) hes always been a great guy and i seriously doubt he would ever do this. This. It's ridiculous how many people instantly assume the chat-log is real simply because Thor didn't come out guns blazing and saying it's all a farce. He released a carefully worded statement that he was not involved in any of these activities and is cooperating fully with the investigation. It's standard legal advice to say nothing if you are arrested before you've spoken to a lawyer. Well it's not any different when someone accuses you of the sort of wrongdoing that Thor has been accused of. It's entirely acceptable that he takes his time with his response as PoorUser explained. Let the investigation proceed and judge the results of those proceedings accordingly. Trying to make snap judgments based on some easy to fake chat-log is hilarious. This is a huge part of the reason so many people have been wrongfully convicted of crimes and later released when DNA evidence cleared them. People on the jury take situations like this and then claim "common sense" would say that the person is guilty. I'm not on anybody's side about this issue. I couldn't give a wet slap whether he's guilty or innocent. I just fall on the side of letting the investigation complete itself before passing judgment. There is no need to shit all over someones reputation before it's actually been proven whether he's guilty or not. If it comes out later that the OP modified the chat-log in an attempt to slander these individuals he could quite easily be slapped with a counter-suit for slander. Just let the situation play out before you judge. It's not like all won't be revealed relatively shortly when the investigation concludes itself.

i hope your kidding, this is a good response by pu nothing more

lol yeah its so compromising to say this conversation is made up and never happened if its true... riiiiiight.

If the conversation was doctored, absolutely made up or something like that and Thor didnt instantly said it its a retarded response.

On August 25 2010 01:35 Baal wrote: lol yeah its so compromising to say this conversation is made up and never happened if its true... riiiiiight. If the conversation was doctored, absolutely made up or something like that and Thor didnt instantly said it its a retarded response.

agreed. and its been a pretty long time since this has come out.

the long delay comes off more to me as someone trying to figure out how to get out/damage control a situation. i think a vast majority of people in his spot would be all over this and denying the claims etc.

we dont know the full truth and probably never will imo.

On August 25 2010 01:35 Baal wrote: lol yeah its so compromising to say this conversation is made up and never happened if its true... riiiiiight. If the conversation was doctored, absolutely made up or something like that and Thor didnt instantly said it its a retarded response.

don't you think it's possible that there are extenuating circumstances that those of us on the outside wouldn't even be able to consider that might cause thorladen to not be completely candid about the situation right now?

i don't know him at all, but he has had an impeccable reputation in the poker community up to this point. that doesn't make him beyond reproach, but it should earn him the benefit of the doubt for the time being, even if you think that window for doubt is pretty small.

it's hard to argue that this doesn't look good for thor based on what we see now, but people should show a little discretion before deciding to condemn him. i would imagine (or at least hope) he'll have a more forthcoming response at some point.

On August 25 2010 03:09 bigredhoss wrote: Show nested quote + On August 25 2010 01:35 Baal wrote: lol yeah its so compromising to say this conversation is made up and never happened if its true... riiiiiight. If the conversation was doctored, absolutely made up or something like that and Thor didnt instantly said it its a retarded response. don't you think it's possible that there are extenuating circumstances that those of us on the outside wouldn't even be able to consider that might cause thorladen to not be completely candid about the situation right now? i don't know him at all, but he has had an impeccable reputation in the poker community up to this point. that doesn't make him beyond reproach, but it should earn him the benefit of the doubt for the time being, even if you think that window for doubt is pretty small. it's hard to argue that this doesn't look good for thor based on what we see now, but people should show a little discretion before deciding to condemn him. i would imagine (or at least hope) he'll have a more forthcoming response at some point.

I like your points.

I'll refrain from further comments till Thorladen gives another response.

Thorladen PM me. I'll help in this network as long as i get a good share. I can help set it up with multiple proxies and can assist ib the gaming and analysis.

On August 25 2010 09:20 Maynard! wrote: Thorladen PM me. I'll help in this network as long as i get a good share. I can help set it up with multiple proxies and can assist ib the gaming and analysis.

what ?

On August 25 2010 09:20 Maynard! wrote: Thorladen PM me. I'll help in this network as long as i get a good share. I can help set it up with multiple proxies and can assist ib the gaming and analysis.

besides the fact that the convo is OVER two years old and just being released now so we have no clue about its authenticity as a whole (i have no doubt some parts of the convo are real but cant speak for 100% of it), thor probably has nothing to hide but at the same time hes a good guy and i dont think he would want to throw sorel under the bus. anything he says to defend himself could end up with him pointing a finger at someone else and i think staying quiet for now and working with the sites on this is a fine idea. who gives a fuck about what the mass public opinion is, they can speculate and feel entitled to responses all they want but after the sites clear up the situation thor can worry about the public then

Thor is taking his time to respond because he is a highly intelligent individual. When someone responds right away they normally 'lost it' and are not thinking completely clear. Thor is probably trying to assess the situation in its entirety and see what he needs to respond to and how to do it in a reasonable manner, whether he is guilty or not.

Also, while I am still skeptical, and not to defend Thor, but he is innocent until he is proven guilty. He has no past offenses associated with him, whereas Sorel does. Again, it is a little shady to talk about cheating with a cheater, that is really just asking for trouble.

All I know is, for someone to put this out there, must really really hate Thor, whether innocent or guilty. This could cost Thor A BUNCH of money, I would hate to speculate. Having someone 'erased' could cost less than $100k.

I hope Thor is innocent.

On August 25 2010 12:25 Daut wrote: besides the fact that the convo is OVER two years old and just being released now so we have no clue about its authenticity as a whole (i have no doubt some parts of the convo are real but cant speak for 100% of it), thor probably has nothing to hide but at the same time hes a good guy and i dont think he would want to throw sorel under the bus. anything he says to defend himself could end up with him pointing a finger at someone else and i think staying quiet for now and working with the sites on this is a fine idea. who gives a fuck about what the mass public opinion is, they can speculate and feel entitled to responses all they want but after the sites clear up the situation thor can worry about the public then

if sorel deserves to be thrown under a bus he should be. Instead, and maybe for the last 2 years, many other poker players have been being thrown under busses to this scheme. If anyone told me they had this sort of intention, i would feel a public duty to out it. There is something to be said about being political but the nature of thor's reply being ambiguous and not denying that the convo was either fake or adultered is ludicrous. The 2p2ers express it in very well detail as to what is shady about it and why. Sure some posts are flames but a lot are serious and provide solid reasoning to, beyond a reasonable doubt demand more transparency from him. I can't think of any good excuse to why he would not have immediately said that the conversation was doctored or adultered. It just takes a second and if it's the truth then it would be the best thing to do in every respect, legal and PR wise.

Of course, on a wild tangent, about the only semi-exusable reasoning for thor's response and lack of response I can imagine is that, if he had solid proof of the incident, say he had reported Sorel to the pokersites via emails instantly after the conversation (but it doesn't look like he's humouring him in the convo) and has verifiable logs of correspondence with an authority on the subject... then he could be intentionally wanting us to derive these conclusions as a troll before he slams down his proof. Sadly, I don't think that's going to happen, but if that is the case, it's very irresponsible from a poker community and legitimacy standpoint.

I wish I was as well spoken as daut.

If this was someone else than Thor, everyone would have been throwing stones and invectives.

Just imagine wobbly or someone else being part of this, then the community would be raging.

Not saying it's a bad idea to lean back and don't judge too fast (in general a good idea), but for me this looks very clear. Anyone that is innocent and was fabricated in a chat log like this would deny it immediately. Seems like Thor seriously discussed this but never (which we can hope) did it.

With this said, I think his response are the best one. I mean, If he took part in the conversation but never did anything, why would he bother discussing the chat log if an investigation with the sites will clear his name.

i bet every single person that has posted in this thread has cheated in one way or another in poker before

i count 7 already, only at a glance

On August 25 2010 16:11 Rekrul wrote: i bet every single person that has posted in this thread has cheated in one way or another in poker before

If poker with cloth-undressing as bets/raises I'm busted.

of course it counts, thats high stakes, boobs have higher value than money

On August 25 2010 16:11 Rekrul wrote: i count 7 already, only at a glance

lol what a cocktease

On August 25 2010 16:19 taco wrote: Show nested quote + On August 25 2010 16:11 Rekrul wrote: i bet every single person that has posted in this thread has cheated in one way or another in poker before If poker with cloth-undressing as bets/raises I'm busted.

idk what this means, a bunch of LPers played stip poker? sounds incredibly incredibly gay

On August 25 2010 01:35 Baal wrote: lol yeah its so compromising to say this conversation is made up and never happened if its true... riiiiiight. If the conversation was doctored, absolutely made up or something like that and Thor didnt instantly said it its a retarded response.

Baal you do this ridiculous thing where you think your "common sense" notions about life actually hold any weight in the real world. First of all there could be a gray area in this scenario. Perhaps some of the conversation is real but large portions have been edited and doctored? Thor is going to have to go through that chat-log tooth and nail and have to remember back to two years ago when it allegedly took place. That's a process that can take a long time. Any lawyer worth his salt would tell him to be very conservative in his remarks if he makes any at all. There is a reason you so often here the words "No comment" when someone is asked by a reporter about charges recently laid against them.

People twist words and form their own perceptions. That's why it's important for Thor to take his time and be careful what statements he releases. It's also important that he let the investigation clear his name - if he is indeed innocent - before he goes around talking about it. If you want an example of this just look at these threads about the topic. He came out and said he never engaged in any of these activities and is fully cooperating with the investigation. The majority perception seems to be that statement loosely translates to "the chat-log is real and he's probably guilty of some wrongdoing" interesting because none of those words were said in his statement. Maybe that's why he's being careful. He knows people like you are going to use their "common sense" to come to conclusions long before the investigation actually provides reliable results. I doubt it would have mattered what he'd said. If he had said "the chat-log is a complete fake" you would have said "oh but there is too much intimate knowledge for it not to be at least partially real" and used that "common sense" crap all over again.

On August 25 2010 14:20 Steal City wrote: Show nested quote + On August 25 2010 12:25 Daut wrote: besides the fact that the convo is OVER two years old and just being released now so we have no clue about its authenticity as a whole (i have no doubt some parts of the convo are real but cant speak for 100% of it), thor probably has nothing to hide but at the same time hes a good guy and i dont think he would want to throw sorel under the bus. anything he says to defend himself could end up with him pointing a finger at someone else and i think staying quiet for now and working with the sites on this is a fine idea. who gives a fuck about what the mass public opinion is, they can speculate and feel entitled to responses all they want but after the sites clear up the situation thor can worry about the public then if sorel deserves to be thrown under a bus he should be. Instead, and maybe for the last 2 years, many other poker players have been being thrown under busses to this scheme. If anyone told me they had this sort of intention, i would feel a public duty to out it. There is something to be said about being political but the nature of thor's reply being ambiguous and not denying that the convo was either fake or adultered is ludicrous. The 2p2ers express it in very well detail as to what is shady about it and why. Sure some posts are flames but a lot are serious and provide solid reasoning to, beyond a reasonable doubt demand more transparency from him. I can't think of any good excuse to why he would not have immediately said that the conversation was doctored or adultered. It just takes a second and if it's the truth then it would be the best thing to do in every respect, legal and PR wise. Of course, on a wild tangent, about the only semi-exusable reasoning for thor's response and lack of response I can imagine is that, if he had solid proof of the incident, say he had reported Sorel to the pokersites via emails instantly after the conversation (but it doesn't look like he's humouring him in the convo) and has verifiable logs of correspondence with an authority on the subject... then he could be intentionally wanting us to derive these conclusions as a troll before he slams down his proof. Sadly, I don't think that's going to happen, but if that is the case, it's very irresponsible from a poker community and legitimacy standpoint.

STRINGER WHERE THE FUCK IS THOR AT?
STRINGER!
WHERE IS THOR????????

they gotta do wallace

On August 25 2010 16:11 Rekrul wrote: i bet every single person that has posted in this thread has cheated in one way or another in poker before

wtf, how.

On August 25 2010 17:27 Bejamin1 wrote: Show nested quote + On August 25 2010 01:35 Baal wrote: lol yeah its so compromising to say this conversation is made up and never happened if its true... riiiiiight. If the conversation was doctored, absolutely made up or something like that and Thor didnt instantly said it its a retarded response. Baal you do this ridiculous thing where you think your "common sense" notions about life actually hold any weight in the real world. First of all there could be a gray area in this scenario. Perhaps some of the conversation is real but large portions have been edited and doctored? Thor is going to have to go through that chat-log tooth and nail and have to remember back to two years ago when it allegedly took place. That's a process that can take a long time. Any lawyer worth his salt would tell him to be very conservative in his remarks if he makes any at all. There is a reason you so often here the words "No comment" when someone is asked by a reporter about charges recently laid against them. People twist words and form their own perceptions. That's why it's important for Thor to take his time and be careful what statements he releases. It's also important that he let the investigation clear his name - if he is indeed innocent - before he goes around talking about it. If you want an example of this just look at these threads about the topic. He came out and said he never engaged in any of these activities and is fully cooperating with the investigation. The majority perception seems to be that statement loosely translates to "the chat-log is real and he's probably guilty of some wrongdoing" interesting because none of those words were said in his statement. Maybe that's why he's being careful. He knows people like you are going to use their "common sense" to come to conclusions long before the investigation actually provides reliable results. I doubt it would have mattered what he'd said. If he had said "the chat-log is a complete fake" you would have said "oh but there is too much intimate knowledge for it not to be at least partially real" and used that "common sense" crap all over again.

Could you please elaborate on the possible harm if Thor said the conversation was false/doctored if it really is?

On August 25 2010 17:47 Daut wrote: STRINGER WHERE THE FUCK IS THOR AT? STRINGER! WHERE IS THOR????????

daut, shut your mouth.

I probably know what happened but probably shouldn't say that probable sequence of events because you probably don't want to know that he probably didn't think of all the probabilities that could probably happen with probable people who will probably do what they probably do at some probable time or another probably

On August 25 2010 20:31 InnerG wrote: I probably know what happened but probably shouldn't say that probable sequence of events because you probably don't want to know that he probably didn't think of all the probabilities that could probably happen with probable people who will probably do what they probably do at some probable time or another probably

solid 3rd or < post

On August 25 2010 16:11 Rekrul wrote: i bet every single person that has posted in this thread has cheated in one way or another in poker before

i actually have out of desperation before, but it was at low stakes and i was a dumb kid(and i seriously needed money like just for food)
it was minor collusion if anyone is curious. i think in 2005 or 2006

i would never do that sort of thing again, im a man now and i was a boy before

the opportunity has even presented itself to me multiple times since then and i've turned it down

ive never cheated in poker! not even soft play friends who ive known for like nearly 10 years.

in fact i punish them brutally

Submitted by : Stim_Abuser

Hand #49037047-37870 at Sweetwater (No Limit Hold'em)
Started at 11/Jan/08 02:08:09
StimAbuser is at seat 0 with $432.45
sivankev is at seat 2 with $201
walker2323 is at seat 3 with $371.10
onegoodplayer is at seat 4 with $821.40
The button is at seat 0
sivankev posts the small blind of $1
walker2323 rejects big blind
onegoodplayer posts the big blind of $2

Holecards(Odds)
StimAbuser :
sivankev: -- --
onegoodplayer: -- --

StimAbuser raises to $7
sivankev folds
onegoodplayer re-raises to $28
StimAbuser calls

Flop(Odds) (Pot : $10)

   
onegoodplayer bets $40
StimAbuser calls

Turn(Odds) (Pot : $90.00)

   
onegoodplayer bets $70
StimAbuser raises to $200
onegoodplayer re-raises to $737
StimAbuser goes
all-in for $364.45
onegoodplayer is returned $372.55
(uncalled)

River (Pot : $-12.55)

   
(no action in this round)

Showdown
onegoodplayer shows
onegoodplayer has : flush, ace high
StimAbuser shows
StimAbuser has : straight flush, eight high

Summary
$1 is raked from a pot of $865.90
No jackpot-rake is taken from this hand
StimAbuser wins $864.90 with straight flush, eight high

LOL damn i forgot about that hand. rigged imo

i dont remember cheating either

On August 26 2010 01:31 YoMeR wrote: LOL damn i forgot about that hand. rigged imo

One time i was bay stealing at a game full of municipal workers and got beaten up when they caught me dealing off the bottom of the deck.

hmmm I don't think I've ever cheated, but then again I haven't had great success at poker. HMMMMM!!

outright cheating, no, pretty hard to do in online poker imo

done immoral stuff, yeah i guess i have. i have probably grimmed someone at some point, but i think at the time i had a good reason for doing so

i've slowrolled ppl who i for one reason or another felt deserved it. either they had done it to me first or they had done/said something else

i have made a fast bet with a sub-par hand upon seeing someone is disconnected. i had no reason for doing so other than wanting to win the pot.

i have berated fish and not only tapped the glass, but smashed it broken after being outdrawn.

this confession has meant nothing.

On August 26 2010 13:10 Stygg wrote: outright cheating, no, pretty hard to do in online poker imo done immoral stuff, yeah i guess i have. i have probably grimmed someone at some point, but i think at the time i had a good reason for doing so i've slowrolled ppl who i for one reason or another felt deserved it. either they had done it to me first or they had done/said something else i have made a fast bet with a sub-par hand upon seeing someone is disconnected. i had no reason for doing so other than wanting to win the pot. i have berated fish and not only tapped the glass, but smashed it broken after being outdrawn. this confession has meant nothing.

none of this is cheating.

thats what i said

when i was 16 i played this girl at chess and when she turned around i totally took one of her pieces , it was loooooooool

On August 26 2010 12:57 byrnesam wrote: One time i was bay stealing at a game full of municipal workers and got beaten up when they caught me dealing off the bottom of the deck.

It's "base dealing" which means to deal from the bottom not "bay stealing" which I would guess involves stealing a bay...

loooooooool byrnesam fail, i can't believe i didn't catch that gold nugget

lol

What scares me the most about this is that the conversation is several years old.

Caught a hanga Sahgg!

On August 26 2010 14:41 JonnyCosMo wrote: What scares me the most about this is that the conversation is several years old.

actually ur one of the few that i have no personal knowledge of cheating from

are you clean mr. cosmo?

I shower everyday rek

lol true

i've been collecting

it's due time for someone to say straight up everything thats wrong with poker players and their ways

On August 26 2010 15:20 Rekrul wrote: lol true i've been collecting it's due time for someone to say straight up everything thats wrong with poker players and their ways

:o lol I'd like to see this

Rekrul, you were quite adamant with regards to the SC cheating, a poker one should be even higher on your list as it pertains even more to your life.

im flying the people i stake down to toronto to play in the ftops

this line gets dropped and thor plays it tight just to see what's out there. so what.

i know most backers and stables ghost extensively

its kids trying to make money get real I have seen it a lot personally and its pretty standard

On August 26 2010 17:40 traxamillion wrote: its kids trying to make money get real I have seen it a lot personally and its pretty standard

u sure?

Online poker is a jungle, every man for himself. a lot of shady shit happens every day

yea ppl aim hh's followed by something like wwud; not talking about full on teamviewer shit

On August 26 2010 15:20 Rekrul wrote: lol true i've been collecting it's due time for someone to say straight up everything thats wrong with poker players and their ways

so ur serious? What form of cheating? How prevalent is this? When I first got into poker I thought everything was straight up and respected people just for being decent poker players because that takes a lot of skill. But the more things go on it's like UGH

If there is some sort of organized cheating then it needs to be stopped. Something like what what is mentioned in this thread would really ruin online poker. Think of how drastically something like that would hurt the other pro's win rates. If this sort of thing were common there would be no way to win without cheating like that.

lol this reminds me of the starcraft betting scandal... spill the beans Dan.




"He who does not punishes evil, commands it to be done. -Da Vici"

i was really interested in what rekrul was talking about as well so i was trying to ask him earlier on msn but he was saying some random cryptic shit and quickly decided out of nowhere that me talking on msn was actually a scammer that hacked my msn account (???? lol) he might not be in the most coherent frame of mind when making these posts fwiw

On August 26 2010 20:44 Ket wrote: i was really interested in what rekrul was talking about as well so i was trying to ask him earlier on msn but he was saying some random cryptic shit and quickly decided out of nowhere that me talking on msn was actually a scammer that hacked my msn account (???? lol) he might not be in the most coherent frame of mind when making these posts fwiw

i know you know of at least one. i've seen you comment on it in a thread lol. as subtle as you tried to be it was pretty obvious.

itd be interesting to see if rekrul posts the info or not.

yes, i know one of them too, i want to know the other 6

On August 26 2010 21:10 Baal wrote: yes, i know one of them too, i want to know the other 6

who's the cheater?

I colluded one time with one of you green stars on some 25 NL tables about 5 years ago.

On August 26 2010 22:30 Tien wrote: I colluded one time with one of you green stars on some 25 NL tables about 5 years ago.

spill the beans

On August 26 2010 21:48 YoMeR wrote: Show nested quote + On August 26 2010 21:10 Baal wrote: yes, i know one of them too, i want to know the other 6 who's the cheater?

well didnt pooruser imply he played on a few occasions on myths accounts?

afaik Khan and Elky were going all-in pf against each other in a re-buy tournament to gain a big stack and Wobbly reported them and the community went against Wobbly (who was right, but also was being a dick) and even i trashed him on the thread, shame on me.

Clay also colluded with ADZ to attack the lone fish and split profits or something like that, in his defense given his 2+2 unintentional confession he wasnt aware that was cheating lol wtf.

cant remember any other scandals from lp.netters, you should ask Rekrul.

i had a small refund from stars(18bux) about a fullring group of cheaters who were colluding. i got so little coz i hardly played any FR 100nl, but ariolis30 my buddy was refunded around 700usd (WTF).

got $40 for nl200, who were these guys?

and btw i respect ariolis' 0.5% 3b

years ago my dad and uncle would play partypoker and tell each other what they had on speakerphone via the land line.

maybe rekrul just means people working together in tournament and stuff

like, 1 account but multiple people making decisions

i don't really consider that cheating tho

i think he means coaching via team viewer and stuff

On August 27 2010 01:16 dogmeat wrote: i think he means coaching via team viewer and stuff

So coaching a session is cheating ? I guess usually the coach gives some advice during the session no ? and all the sites that propose coaching...

mez and adz didnt collude they just split profits 50/50 in a 3 handed game wtihout the third party knowing about it.

diff than outright collusion

wtf ket why u try so hard to act like a scammer when msn'ing me lol

and no, nothing ground breaking, there are just infinite ways of cheating in poker...everyone justifies certain things and looks down upon others for all sorts of different reasons and it's just a huge LOL. also big LOL how theres always huge threads of flames online when stuff like this comes out (not saying thor is a cheat) yet irl everyone is too pussy to say anything...either u care or u don't, make up ur mind.

On August 27 2010 02:33 Rekrul wrote: and no, nothing ground breaking, there are just infinite ways of cheating in poker...everyone justifies certain things and looks down upon others for all sorts of different reasons and it's just a huge LOL. also big LOL how theres always huge threads of flames online when stuff like this comes out (not saying thor is a cheat) yet irl everyone is too pussy to say anything...either u care or u don't, make up ur mind.

we all know you know something, and decided not to say anything, and this is your "justifiable" escape plan.

SPILL IT REKRUL
WE DEMAND DRAMA

change rekruls avatar to a tin foil hat