NL200 river call or raise

Guy is a bad reg, I've seen him 3bet and chk top set on super drawy boards then donk weak on the turn. I've also had him c/c low flush draw flops OOP with AQo and donk blank turns, then donk blank rivers very small.

This is such a standard spot that it sickens me to ask, but I've ran into this exact thing three times this week and my brain is fucking exploding. I honestly thought the best play was to flat given my experience here but then I keep thinking 'we have to get value, he couldn't have c/c'd a FD'. But then I think he's been tricky with everything and I'm even more confused.

Submitted by : Skew

PokerStars Game #48011028525: Holdem No Limit ($1/$2 USD) - 2010/08/11 8:47:05 PT [2010/08/11 11:47:05 ET]
Table Scylla II 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: fakker11 ($363 in chips)
Seat 2: ran77 ($281.35 in chips)
Seat 3: DerickDevil ($386.80 in chips)
Seat 4: iKenone ($199 in chips)
Seat 5: Hero ($397.05 in chips)
Seat 6: ZipD ($209 in chips)
ZipD: posts small blind $1
fakker11: posts big blind $2

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
ran77: folds
DerickDevil: folds
iKenone: raises $4 to $6
Hero: calls $6
ZipD: folds
fakker11: folds

Flop (Pot : $15.00)

   
iKenone: checks
Hero: bets $10
iKenone: calls $10

Turn (Pot : $35.00)

   
iKenone: checks
Hero: bets $24
iKenone: calls $24

River (Pot : $83.00)

   
iKenone: bets $35

doing anything but raising here is insane

Raise/fold hate life

On August 11 2010 22:16 TalentedTom wrote: doing anything but raising here is insane

losing 5 buyins to the same exact situation is insane. i've yet to see any reg or fish take this line and block/call the river with worse, it makes absolutely no sense. every single time it's tp+fd or nfd.

show me this line being worse and i'll shut up.

On August 11 2010 23:21 Skew wrote: Show nested quote + On August 11 2010 22:16 TalentedTom wrote: doing anything but raising here is insane losing 5 buyins to the same exact situation is insane. i've yet to see any reg or fish take this line and block/call the river with worse, it makes absolutely no sense. every single time it's tp+fd or nfd. show me this line being worse and i'll shut up.

stfu and don't post the hand if you don't want advice

On August 11 2010 23:21 Skew wrote: Show nested quote + On August 11 2010 22:16 TalentedTom wrote: doing anything but raising here is insane losing 5 buyins to the same exact situation is insane. i've yet to see any reg or fish take this line and block/call the river with worse, it makes absolutely no sense. every single time it's tp+fd or nfd. show me this line being worse and i'll shut up.

so basically what your saying is you have a read on this type of line from a 200nl reg...maybe follow the advice of your own note instead of trashing ppl trying to give you advice on what they believe is the best play based off their experience

no based on my experience of this line worse never calls.

and stop being pansies, tom is obviously amazing and i didn't hate on anyone. 'i'll shut up' is to be taken sarcastically, i just want a deeper look at it than 'you have flush, shove'.

On August 11 2010 23:02 palak wrote: Raise/fold hate life

how much do you guys raise and why? i actually thought about minraising but i figured shoving would look weaker (maybe that's wrong).

raise to 80 and fold to shove.

unless he's CRAAAAZZZYYY. in which case u call or just jam.

but yeah, raise/fold is puke but prob. best play.

this is like the easiest shove of your life

unless u have a history with villain where you are being extremely aggro on late streets I really don't think a standard 200nl reg will call a shove here with worse...random fish, aggro reg, or unknown ya it's an easy shove...but vs the villain described i'd rather raise to 80 or 90 where he will convince himself to call with TP or some other weakish hand. Pretty sure he will fold without a flush vs a shove and we only beat 1 combo of flush hands (not counting 47hh as a hand). Hero really should just go with his read on the situation from his apparently 5 times of facing this exact same situation and adjust accordingly.

@palak i mean i've been in this situation many times in the past 20k hands, not vs this villain specifically. twice i had players c/c, c/c, blocker/call with high flushes when i was bluffing and twice when i had a lower flush. i try not to be results oriented but honestly the line is so fucking weird for the pfr i just can't imagine shoving and having worse call, and my experience is backing that up.

edit: so apparently i need to learn to raise smaller/fold, which i will get on top of :>

you say this happens a lot but the actual board texture really matters. most players probably dont take this raise pre, c/c line without having some sort of showdown value - so you can take out a lot of flushes besides i guess the QhXh flushes and this would be a very terrible way to play it in a vacuum and most people will probably just play it fast.

so likely, given this flop the guy probably just has some Qx hand. He c/cs because he doesnt want to get raised, then he feels uncomfortable on the heart river because you can easily have a flush and he doesn't want to get into a guessing game, and decides to make a terrible lead. you punish this by raising and he talks himself into calling anyway

He wouldnt call with any fd on turn and river? Think of all the qxhh and jxhh he could have. Also fd + gutter and fd and overs.

You guys are all idiots

He never has a flush here. Raising small looks wayyy stronger than a shove & he won't fold Qx to a shove anyway

On August 12 2010 02:48 Skew wrote: @palak i mean i've been in this situation many times in the past 20k hands, not vs this villain specifically. twice i had players c/c, c/c, blocker/call with high flushes when i was bluffing and twice when i had a lower flush. i try not to be results oriented but honestly the line is so fucking weird for the pfr i just can't imagine shoving and having worse call, and my experience is backing that up. edit: so apparently i need to learn to raise smaller/fold, which i will get on top of :>

When I get flushed over flushed, I get stacked almost 100% of the time, furthermore if I get flushed over flushed 4x in a row, the 5th time I'm still getting stacked / stacking myself by shoving. This weak mentallity is gonna cost you a lot of money long term

HES A "BAD REG".....

HMM....HINT HINT

On August 12 2010 12:19 TalentedTom wrote: When I get flushed over flushed, I get stacked almost 100% of the time, furthermore if I get flushed over flushed 4x in a row, the 5th time I'm still getting stacked / stacking myself by shoving. This weak mentallity is gonna cost you a lot of money long term

This. Get on it man.

anyone saying raise / fold are you serious? do you even see the stacksizes? standard shove

What worse hand is a bad 200nl reg calling a shove with? Not saying a shove is bad even though I prefer a smaller raise I just really wanna know what hands ppl think he calls with here

Also I doubt hero is very aggro postflop and villain probably knows this

On August 12 2010 09:55 Maynard! wrote: He wouldnt call with any fd on turn and river? Think of all the qxhh and jxhh he could have. Also fd + gutter and fd and overs.

i should point out that villain is pfr in this hand (just in case u overlooked it). you wouldnt agree that c/c as pfr is more indicative of made hands rather than flush draws?

On August 12 2010 14:30 TimDawg wrote: HES A "BAD REG"..... HMM....HINT HINT

seriously?

and the guy had A7hh

i dunno but im not shoving here. im prob wrong abt it

On August 13 2010 07:15 Skew wrote: Show nested quote + On August 12 2010 14:30 TimDawg wrote: HES A "BAD REG"..... HMM....HINT HINT seriously? and the guy had A7hh

beeing results oriented will make ur plays even worse-.-
its a weird spot , but i think longterm its way more profitable raising here than just calling.

On August 13 2010 08:17 Dogan0s wrote: Show nested quote + On August 13 2010 07:15 Skew wrote:   On August 12 2010 14:30 TimDawg wrote: HES A "BAD REG"..... HMM....HINT HINT seriously? and the guy had A7hh beeing results oriented will make ur plays even worse-.- its a weird spot , but i think longterm its way more profitable raising here than just calling.

was simply replying to him saying villain never has a flush here, which is obviously nonsense

anyway seems too close of a spot as everyone has different opinions on it so whatever

Ok keep thinking every 1/2 reg check/calls this flop with the nut flush draw

On August 12 2010 21:03 PanoRaMa wrote: Show nested quote + On August 12 2010 09:55 Maynard! wrote: He wouldnt call with any fd on turn and river? Think of all the qxhh and jxhh he could have. Also fd + gutter and fd and overs. i should point out that villain is pfr in this hand (just in case u overlooked it). you wouldnt agree that c/c as pfr is more indicative of made hands rather than flush draws?

I did not notice that 8).

I wish all my decision were this easy...

if this is one of your harder decisions then you are a very fortunate man...

shit even in full ring i'm going to either raise/call this river or just jam over his pussy bet. the only reason why i'd "tank or think" about it is simply to holly wood and pretend i have to think about a tough decision..

On August 11 2010 21:54 Skew wrote: Guy is a bad reg, I've seen him 3bet and chk top set on super drawy boards then donk weak on the turn. I've also had him c/c low flush draw flops OOP with AQo and donk blank turns, then donk blank rivers very small.

You just answered yourself why you should raise.

On August 13 2010 23:34 YoMeR wrote: shit even in full ring i'm going to either raise/call this river or just jam over his pussy bet. the only reason why i'd "tank or think" about it is simply to holly wood and pretend i have to think about a tough decision..

deppends on villain but its not like average nit is calling you w/ worse


also

oh man, I read the text, then saw the kid's fist clenched with sand, cant stop laughing