NL1k: KK on 220bb

his is the site (ongame) where I have almost never played at.

But I have 3.2k hands database on villan. 30/26, 3b 8.5%, pretty aggro

Earlier he took almost every pot from me, calling me pf, than raising flop or calling and raising turn, and I couldnt hit anything.

Finally few orbits earlier I managed to doubled up on him TT vs 99 blind vs blind.



Dont know if he is capable of big bluffs here.

Whats the best line, how about pf bet sizing (its 310$ total)?

(Button was a fishy player 27/21, 3b 9.1%)

Submitted by : Soprano

***** Hand History for Game 571548385551 ***** On Game
$1000.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, August 01, 10:47:22 ET 2010
Table Hyderabad Real Money
Seat 1 is the button
Seat 2: -KAPTEN std- $3476.00 USD
Seat 9: laxmir8 $965.00 USD
Seat 10: Hero $2238.00 USD
Seat 1: Jane_16 $1010.00 USD
-KAPTEN std- posts small blind [$5.00 USD].
laxmir8 posts big blind [$10.00 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero [ ]
Hero raises [$30.00 USD]
Jane_16 calls [$30.00 USD]
-KAPTEN std- raises [$125.00 USD]
laxmir8 folds
Hero raises [$280.00 USD]
Jane_16 folds
-KAPTEN std- calls [$180.00 USD]

Flop (Pot : $625.00)

   
-KAPTEN std- checks
Hero

soprano to tylko bet bet bet w donka

Check behind. Call if bet turn and bet if he check. River depends of card and action ?

Preflop sizing is whatever gets the money in over 3 streets so $310 should be fine.

I think you can go for bet/bet/shove here with good betsizes given the dynamic you have built up. In any case, I'd never fold.

I think its a leak to automatically stack off here against average opponents, but given description it sounds like villain is probably calling ur 4 bet with his entire 3 betting range (or at least his suited 3 betting range) thinking he has implied odds. You can definitely bet here expecting value from worse and I think u can be marginally ok with getting it in vs a raise.

start by betting and continue from there

lol at responses. You're crushing the part of villain's range that he's happy to get it in with. bet $400 and watch him stack off with KQo.

This deep I like the 4bet size pre- you want him to be calling off a decent chunk of cash.

Any other advice mr 3 posts?

On September 01 2010 08:54 delete wrote: lol at responses. You're crushing the part of villain's range that he's happy to get it in with. bet $400 and watch him stack off with KQo. This deep I like the 4bet size pre- you want him to be calling off a decent chunk of cash.

+1

i think anywhere from 200 to 390 on flop is fine

On September 01 2010 09:36 Jun wrote: Any other advice mr 3 posts?

this is quite rude, and very unnecessary. especially considering the source.

not its not, "delete" started his post with "lol at responses".

So....uh......fuck him...

Extremely suspicious/certain I met him at a party a few days ago and he's good. Hiya.

you sized it to create play pf and so i think you need to continue your story and that your intent here should be to drag him along and i think that this hand will have a big impact in the future against him if it gets to showdown

i like 390 pf and bomb it down with the intent of getting functionally AI on the turn but i can see the merits of creating play pf and in that case I don't see much wrong at all with checking behind; in this manner you are implicitly continuing to feel him out, showing respect for him i guess.

i do think you need to be doing both though and simply letting the effective stack and your pattern recognition ability drive your behaviour should be functionally unreadable

like, this spot is ez but the meta is hard if that makes any sense, i think you may be overemphasizing the importance of meta, just fucking, KK, big hand, 4 handed, bomb it, good flop, bomb it, fuck any turn card

yes. if you want to be able to approach this player indirectly in the future, check behind, thereby enhancing the probability of this going to showdown for a win thereby letting you polarize your range to the good in the future if you need it, this just allows that sort of concept to be available for usage. if you want to be able to play straight value against him and feel comfortable playing strength vs strength, and roll is not an issue, take the bombing run.

it's like, over time, both concepts will eventually become available for usage. it's more about what do you want to do right now than anything else. in a sense you are sort of trading straight EV for information with a smaller reraise pre. on the flop the question becomes, do you want to trade just a little more and in that case i think you need to have a plan for what to do with it in the future.

for instance, checking behind and gaybetting it twice with alot of thought would be sort of beautiful and elegant in alot of ways.

so yeah i hate that you actually have to think on the flop in position, i think you lack the conceptual framework behind why it is that you fagged it up pf for seemingly no reason, and so i think that in this case a check is clear.

everything he's done reeks of ineptitude and indicates gaps in his conceptual framework, this needs to be bombed, i'm even starting to like 440 pf and open shipping this flop.

SOMEONE GET CASPER OUTTA HERE

AHHHHHHHHHHH MIND FUCKKKKK

On September 02 2010 14:03 TimDawg wrote: SOMEONE GET CASPER OUTTA HERE AHHHHHHHHHHH MIND FUCKKKKK

ding broke ur mind, hu?

I'm no expert this high, usually had to drop down. But I think it's no point going to deep, just bet and get value, he'll make moves, call with tons of stuff ur ahead off

that's the thing, the smaller rr pre demotivates players from wanting to get cute as the result of it appearing to be a potbuild/milk/faggot shit and if you're playing the hand for outright value then you're sacrificing there too

basically applying mtt thinking patterns to a deep cash situation

sawseech, are you qualified to post here?

http://www.liquidpoker.net/poker-foru...d_before_posting_in_high_stakes!.html

On September 02 2010 18:00 sawseech wrote: basically applying mtt thinking patterns to a deep cash situation

kaaaaBOOOOOOOOOOOOM

On September 02 2010 18:33 Steal City wrote: sawseech, are you qualified to post here? http://www.liquidpoker.net/poker-foru...d_before_posting_in_high_stakes!.html

these are comments not hands and if anybody complains i will gladly stfu and go and hide in a corner and cry

are u fucking kidding me sawseech why are you postbombing high stakes

On September 02 2010 23:55 exalted wrote: are u fucking kidding me sawseech why are you postbombing high stakes

Don't wanna hijack, but his posts are at the least providing some food for discussion, which is in shorter supply these days.

On September 01 2010 13:16 AndrewSong wrote: Show nested quote + On September 01 2010 08:54 delete wrote: lol at responses. You're crushing the part of villain's range that he's happy to get it in with. bet $400 and watch him stack off with KQo. This deep I like the 4bet size pre- you want him to be calling off a decent chunk of cash. +1

If we compare the stack/pot ratio with this sizing to a more std 100bbs situation, say 3betting KK from the blinds std size is ~11bbs right? which is 1/9 of our effective 100bb stacks. Here 280 is about 1/8. So purely from the perspective of stack/pot ratio we should be just as comfortable getting stacks in here as we would be in a std 100bb deep, 3bet KK from the blinds situation.

A couple of things that separate the two situations:
1) how the difference in both players ranges between those 2 situations should affect the 4bet size (villains 3bet range will be strong and have better implied odds than in the example)
and 2) pot odds are better for the villain here than in my 100bb example, so we should size bigger

On September 03 2010 12:25 Fraser wrote: Show nested quote + On September 02 2010 23:55 exalted wrote: are u fucking kidding me sawseech why are you postbombing high stakes Don't wanna hijack, but his posts are at the least providing some food for discussion, which is in shorter supply these days.

Is that what hes doing? To me it seems more like hes giving shit to someone who plays 10 times higher than him and just being generally wrong...

On September 03 2010 13:26 EvilSky wrote: Show nested quote + On September 03 2010 12:25 Fraser wrote:   On September 02 2010 23:55 exalted wrote: are u fucking kidding me sawseech why are you postbombing high stakes Don't wanna hijack, but his posts are at the least providing some food for discussion, which is in shorter supply these days. Is that what hes doing? To me it seems more like hes giving shit to someone who plays 10 times higher than him and just being generally wrong...

Ya, not the most constructive posts you're right. Exalted is just such an arrogant hater i tend to take any side hes not on.

What do you think about the 4bet size?

if someone thinks i'm giving shit to a well respected poster who i know next to nothing about just because i put alot of content out there and am irreverent about the content then that person needs a reality check

it's a fucking poker hand i'm not kicking your fucking dog

go outside

On September 02 2010 23:55 exalted wrote: are u fucking kidding me sawseech why are you postbombing high stakes

~tHe CaLLoUt~

On September 03 2010 22:24 sawseech wrote: if someone thinks i'm giving shit to a well respected poster who i know next to nothing about just because i put alot of content out there and am irreverent about the content then that person needs a reality check

Thats exactly what it is, that somehow you feel justified not only spamming your advice but also being a dick about it by saying he lacks some understanding of the game while he plays much higher stakes than you, I think maybe you are the one who needs a reality check.

On September 03 2010 19:06 Fraser wrote: Show nested quote + On September 03 2010 13:26 EvilSky wrote:   On September 03 2010 12:25 Fraser wrote:   On September 02 2010 23:55 exalted wrote: are u fucking kidding me sawseech why are you postbombing high stakes Don't wanna hijack, but his posts are at the least providing some food for discussion, which is in shorter supply these days. Is that what hes doing? To me it seems more like hes giving shit to someone who plays 10 times higher than him and just being generally wrong... Ya, not the most constructive posts you're right. Exalted is just such an arrogant hater i tend to take any side hes not on. What do you think about the 4bet size?

I think going a bit bigger would be better but even as it is we still got plenty of room to get the money in.

So yeah, 40 posts and how many valuable ones?

Sawseech , if u wanted to get some decent points into the discussion, making 10+ posts instead of well written one seems like a bad idea.

My god..

Sawseech - I don't mean to be rude but you clearly suck at poker and have nothing to offer here. This forum isn't warcraft arena. You clearly have no understanding of poker and it's not cool to blabber on your warcraft thinking process. There's some very good posters here and post like yours will discourage them from sharing their insight.

-Andrew

On September 03 2010 12:43 Fraser wrote: Show nested quote + On September 01 2010 13:16 AndrewSong wrote:   On September 01 2010 08:54 delete wrote: lol at responses. You're crushing the part of villain's range that he's happy to get it in with. bet $400 and watch him stack off with KQo. This deep I like the 4bet size pre- you want him to be calling off a decent chunk of cash. +1 If we compare the stack/pot ratio with this sizing to a more std 100bbs situation, say 3betting KK from the blinds std size is ~11bbs right? which is 1/9 of our effective 100bb stacks. Here 280 is about 1/8. So purely from the perspective of stack/pot ratio we should be just as comfortable getting stacks in here as we would be in a std 100bb deep, 3bet KK from the blinds situation. A couple of things that separate the two situations: 1) how the difference in both players ranges between those 2 situations should affect the 4bet size (villains 3bet range will be strong and have better implied odds than in the example) and 2) pot odds are better for the villain here than in my 100bb example, so we should size bigger

I'm not sure if your asking or adding to my comments but reason why betting > potcontrol is because it's a situation where u'll be betting with most of your air. You don't wanna lose any value when huge part of his 4bet call range consists of AQ QK 99-AA

On September 05 2010 06:47 AndrewSong wrote: Show nested quote + On September 03 2010 12:43 Fraser wrote:   On September 01 2010 13:16 AndrewSong wrote:   On September 01 2010 08:54 delete wrote: lol at responses. You're crushing the part of villain's range that he's happy to get it in with. bet $400 and watch him stack off with KQo. This deep I like the 4bet size pre- you want him to be calling off a decent chunk of cash. +1 If we compare the stack/pot ratio with this sizing to a more std 100bbs situation, say 3betting KK from the blinds std size is ~11bbs right? which is 1/9 of our effective 100bb stacks. Here 280 is about 1/8. So purely from the perspective of stack/pot ratio we should be just as comfortable getting stacks in here as we would be in a std 100bb deep, 3bet KK from the blinds situation. A couple of things that separate the two situations: 1) how the difference in both players ranges between those 2 situations should affect the 4bet size (villains 3bet range will be strong and have better implied odds than in the example) and 2) pot odds are better for the villain here than in my 100bb example, so we should size bigger I'm not sure if your asking or adding to my comments but reason why betting > potcontrol is because it's a situation where u'll be betting with most of your air. You don't wanna lose any value when huge part of his 4bet call range consists of AQ QK 99-AA

I was agreeing with you - some people seemed to want to pot control so I just wanted to compare this situation to one where hero had 3bet KK from the blinds 100bbs deep, and point out that stack/pot ratio is similar, and yet we would never consider pot controlling KK on this board in the 3bet pot example.

we always bet here--almost the entirety of his range calls, valueraises, or semibluffraises. we never fold. i think fraser's comment is quite right but i feel our villain's range is very very wide here given dynamics and i would be quite happy to get it in with KK

leave casper alone!

Dinamics seems good to stack AQ here, if he CR the flop then i shit my pants and prolly call to see QQ-AA every time

I would've liked a slightly larger PF bet, just because I feel like a lot of guys would be willing to call the extra 180 with a small pair just for implied odds. Unless you'd been 3 betting light a lot preflop he has to have you on a big pair, so betting so small PF doesn't really tell you much about his range heading into the flop.

I think regardless of the turn or the river you're going to be in for some tough decisions if he plays back at you. If you bet the pot and he flats, you're going to be awful uncomfortable if any A or Q comes off on the turn, or if he just jams over the top of a pot sized bet, you're gonna have a hard time folding but at that point there's almost nothing you can beat so, I don't know.

I'd honestly prob just be a pussy and try to keep the pot small and try to either win or lose the minimum just to find out more about the player in question, what he called you with PF is good info to have.