Overpair w/ deep river decision

Villan is young kid (most likely plays a lot online) who frequents the game a lot. He is a pretty good hand reader but definitely is on the spewy side, and seems to be very stubborn. He's probably one of the better regs that come to this game. We've had a decent amount of history; I've taken some stabs with air in small pots, he's called. I've 3bet his late position raise twice this session and both times he just folded.

Villan has $3500, I cover.

Villan opens UTG+2 to $70, I flat right behind him in UTG+3. Everyone else folds.

Flop comes (Pot $170)

He checks, I bet $120. He thinks for a bit then calls.

Turn comes (Pot $410)

He checks, I bet $300. He tanks for like 2 minutes and raises to $700. I called the $400 more.

River comes (Pot $1810)

He thinks for like 20 seconds, then checks. Villan has a little more than $2600 left behind. Thoughts on river options?

What I did:

+ Show Spoiler +

shoved for value?... isn't his range super polarized here to like air/nuts?

I can't see him having like AT here or anything with the same value

I don't like it... I think it is the most standard check behind, like when he tanks and checks I think he either gives up on a bluff or he's trapping you

Yea shoves for value obv. Can't see a hand that he would check here that beats QQ. But mainly because from his point of view, I don't think he sees any of my range being able to shove river here.

That make some kind of funky sense or am I just nutty?

I would chk. Don't think valueshoving is good at all, I think betting small and calling a shove is way better but I think checking is better than both

its 100% vbet or shove for me. i'd go 1400$ ur hand doesnt really make much sense here either, could e-z have a big heart.

I think he most likely has 99 or 88 with a heart. bet what u think he can call, or if u havent showdown alot then just shove it in and look mega bluffy.

On July 22 2010 00:40 n0rthf4ce wrote: I would chk. Don't think valueshoving is good at all, I think betting small and calling a shove is way better but I think checking is better than both

this is pretty much perfect

i'm not going to lie, when i read through the hand, my first thought was to shove the river for value because it doesn't seem like we're ever beat and it looks pretty bluffy. after more thought, however, i think checking is by far the best play

dandy he check raise the turn, he never has 88/99... I check sooooo often here especially vs someone who can take tricky lines

On July 22 2010 11:41 Fayth wrote: dandy he check raise the turn, he never has 88/99... I check sooooo often here especially vs someone who can take tricky lines

He check called the flop with what hands? flushes? better overpairs? turn c/r is so bad sizing it basically is a information raise.

On the river we are pretty much never beat, why not shove get the occasional spew call or just never showdown which is great for image?

If we check what do we expect to see that is better than us?

i check but its still a close spot cuz people are terrible

fayth and northface have the best advice in this thread. its kind of annoying that i have nothing more to say cuz they just raped it :.

On July 22 2010 12:27 dandydolly wrote: Show nested quote + On July 22 2010 11:41 Fayth wrote: dandy he check raise the turn, he never has 88/99... I check sooooo often here especially vs someone who can take tricky lines He check called the flop with what hands? flushes? better overpairs? turn c/r is so bad sizing it basically is a information raise. On the river we are pretty much never beat, why not shove get the occasional spew call or just never showdown which is great for image? If we check what do we expect to see that is better than us?

There is merit in not showing down our hand but there is also merit for cosmo to build a more solid image if he does show QQ here. Also, we can learn a lot about the kid once he shows his hand, especially on such a weirdly played hand as this one. That will benefit us a lot more in future hands than the benefit of not showing our hand.

I wrote up a long post with tons of great information but then i remembered I've been your worst enemy on PTR for like 1.5 years or more. I really don't feel like I have any beef with you but PTR is pretty damn accurate these days so...

On July 21 2010 22:04 Fayth wrote: shoved for value?... isn't his range super polarized here to like air/nuts? I can't see him having like AT here or anything with the same value I don't like it... I think it is the most standard check behind, like when he tanks and checks I think he either gives up on a bluff or he's trapping you

He can for sure have AT/KT/JJ/KK/AA/A7/88/99 on the turn even with a small check raise, probably without a heart, i don't think he's very polarized at all. Also most people who tank/check the river live are PRAYING for a check behind and you should usually value bet them. I think if you're beat it's by something dumb like A7ss or KK/AA. I would probably remember what he looked like when he check raised you on the turn and then check behind and use that against him in the future.

On July 22 2010 23:54 Steal City wrote: I wrote up a long post with tons of great information but then i remembered I've been your worst enemy on PTR for like 1.5 years or more. I really don't feel like I have any beef with you but PTR is pretty damn accurate these days so...

gawd i remember that one session, a friend of mine was coaching me in HU and he was shocked at the blood bath :-P

On July 23 2010 01:45 JonnyCosMo wrote: Show nested quote + On July 22 2010 23:54 Steal City wrote: I wrote up a long post with tons of great information but then i remembered I've been your worst enemy on PTR for like 1.5 years or more. I really don't feel like I have any beef with you but PTR is pretty damn accurate these days so... gawd i remember that one session, a friend of mine was coaching me in HU and he was shocked at the blood bath :-P

will u please share results ?

Without more in depth reads I like a river check here, because it looks like villain can never have a worse value hand on this river . However on balance I think if you factor in the chance of him checking a nutted hand on the river and the chance that he checkraised a hand worse than QQ on the turn and will hero call to a river bet some percentage, shoving the river isn't that bad.
There may also be some implied value of villain tilting in the course of the session due to us shoving the river. Especially as OP mentioned he can be spewy.

u know what also tilts villains? showing down better hands we didn't fold to their bs lines =_=

On July 23 2010 09:05 DooMeR wrote: u know what also tilts villains? showing down better hands we didn't fold to their bs lines =_=

i really dont see how showing QQ here tilts him

i bet 1580, feel great about it for value, then fold instantly if he shoves as if you had air

lol @ checking back here

On July 23 2010 09:50 Rekrul wrote: i bet 1580, feel great about it for value, then fold instantly if he shoves as if you had air for future metagame lol @ checking back here

throw a black chip in casually then smile and let him do another retard small checkraise then call and his see hand and win money

this is live how the fuck can u check here at least bet $20

Turn small raise feels like he wants to get to a cheapish showdown with a marginal hand, dont think an online reg would ever c/c the flop with a set or a flush, Id prolly jam and hope he herocalls with whatever.

On July 23 2010 09:16 dandydolly wrote: Show nested quote + On July 23 2010 09:05 DooMeR wrote: u know what also tilts villains? showing down better hands we didn't fold to their bs lines =_= i really dont see how showing QQ here tilts him

shoving here and then showing the black Q would be the lol :-P

On July 23 2010 11:54 EvilSky wrote: Turn small raise feels like he wants to get to a cheapish showdown with a marginal hand, dont think an online reg would ever c/c the flop with a set or a flush, Id prolly jam and hope he herocalls with whatever.

dat would make sense in position, not out of position =(

On July 23 2010 13:16 JonnyCosMo wrote: Show nested quote + On July 23 2010 09:16 dandydolly wrote:   On July 23 2010 09:05 DooMeR wrote: u know what also tilts villains? showing down better hands we didn't fold to their bs lines =_= i really dont see how showing QQ here tilts him shoving here and then showing the black Q would be the lol :-P

only real play here is to take ur Qh and flash it up real quick while hes not looking directly then back down instantly and do ur damndest to make sure everyone else at the table that saw STFUS. then see what happens

win the crowd, win your freedom

On July 23 2010 19:18 Rekrul wrote: Show nested quote + On July 23 2010 13:16 JonnyCosMo wrote:   On July 23 2010 09:16 dandydolly wrote:   On July 23 2010 09:05 DooMeR wrote: u know what also tilts villains? showing down better hands we didn't fold to their bs lines =_= i really dont see how showing QQ here tilts him shoving here and then showing the black Q would be the lol :-P only real play here is to take ur Qh and flash it up real quick while hes not looking directly then back down instantly and do ur damndest to make sure everyone else at the table that saw STFUS. then see what happens win the crowd, win your freedom

It doesn't matter how you do it as long as you win the crowd, you look asian so make funny asian faces then lift your cards high up in your palm and shove if you did shove. Fight silly plays with silly antics.

WIN THE CROWD

hhaha Spartacus poker imo

On July 23 2010 19:47 kaboom wrote: Show nested quote + On July 23 2010 19:18 Rekrul wrote:   On July 23 2010 13:16 JonnyCosMo wrote:   On July 23 2010 09:16 dandydolly wrote:   On July 23 2010 09:05 DooMeR wrote: u know what also tilts villains? showing down better hands we didn't fold to their bs lines =_= i really dont see how showing QQ here tilts him shoving here and then showing the black Q would be the lol :-P only real play here is to take ur Qh and flash it up real quick while hes not looking directly then back down instantly and do ur damndest to make sure everyone else at the table that saw STFUS. then see what happens win the crowd, win your freedom It doesn't matter how you do it as long as you win the crowd, you look asian so make funny asian faces then lift your cards high up in your palm and shove if you did shove. Fight silly plays with silly antics. WIN THE CROWD

IS THIS NOT WHY YOU ARE HERE?

On July 23 2010 23:10 Rekrul wrote: Show nested quote + On July 23 2010 19:47 kaboom wrote:   On July 23 2010 19:18 Rekrul wrote:   On July 23 2010 13:16 JonnyCosMo wrote:   On July 23 2010 09:16 dandydolly wrote:   On July 23 2010 09:05 DooMeR wrote: u know what also tilts villains? showing down better hands we didn't fold to their bs lines =_= i really dont see how showing QQ here tilts him shoving here and then showing the black Q would be the lol :-P only real play here is to take ur Qh and flash it up real quick while hes not looking directly then back down instantly and do ur damndest to make sure everyone else at the table that saw STFUS. then see what happens win the crowd, win your freedom It doesn't matter how you do it as long as you win the crowd, you look asian so make funny asian faces then lift your cards high up in your palm and shove if you did shove. Fight silly plays with silly antics. WIN THE CROWD IS THIS NOT WHY YOU ARE HERE?

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED? ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?????

On July 23 2010 15:24 Fayth wrote: Show nested quote + On July 23 2010 11:54 EvilSky wrote: Turn small raise feels like he wants to get to a cheapish showdown with a marginal hand, dont think an online reg would ever c/c the flop with a set or a flush, Id prolly jam and hope he herocalls with whatever. dat would make sense in position, not out of position =(

Well it would work on you since you check back everything that isnt nuts or air ^^

yeah without a specific read, but I would still win the hand and villain is just check folding so I don't see the point

he can always herocall putting you on a busted draw and if we base all this on that he shouldnt rly have us beat very often if ever betting is still +EV while checking is neutral.

I thought given the situation, and our current history with each other, that I was getting called a very high % of the time here on the river. Given that a lot of his range is probably BS / busted draws / i dont fucking know, what is optimal bet size? When I was in the moment my thoughts were like: "Bet $600? Mmmm, bet lol $200? Mmmm bet like $1400? Don't tank too long, your giving him time to think. Let's shove and see if cool things happen"

Okay, so what happened?

shoving is the 2nd worse play here with checking back being the WORST, like you said it yourself his range is retarded hands up to a really strangely played small flush which he has like 2% of the time here. The top of his calling range are hands like AhTx imo.

perfect spot for those LOL well timed gay-bets and try to extract some value for the rhino session from a crying call or give him space without risking his entire stack to make another monkey play out of spite.

it's gotta be something you can do casually like a black chip or two black chips, but now I'm leaning towards splashing a purple chip into the pot and creating a ruckus.

LOOOOOOOOOOL cookie

He snap called.

Okay, and what did he show?

On July 26 2010 16:17 TheHuHu3 wrote: Okay, and what did he show?

...and he had

the exact same hand

the joker?

wut did he have

Tell us what you had, phaggot.

the ...

GW

Cool, so he had ATs and you won the hand, congratulations!!! :D:D:D.

and....

7!

10!

nono! Ah!!!

Has to be the Ace of hearts.

fml

tricky...

raped

thats why faith and peachy have all the monnies and everyone else is broke trying to make a living at 2-4

i am owed some money imo cuz i said same thing

hahahah owned

I want half credit because i did say he had a marginal hand on the turn, i cant imagine he wanted to get it in there with 2p.

I think it depends on your image. If you are barreling relentlessly then firing for thin value will work. I don't think you are ever getting called by worse when you shove.