DEEP 10/20 at Commerce hand

Would post most questions about Commerce live poker hands in the low stakes thread since it seems no one thinks higher than what you'd assume runs through the mind of your average NL10 regular, but villan in this hand seems to be a competent young internet player. Previous history: I've been on a downward spiral and been losing a bunch of pots ever since this villan sits at table. Villan has been on the total opposite, everything works for him, and two people have already tried to bluff off stacks into his nut hands. Other than that, he hasn't been out of line and there isn't much else I know about villan.

Stacks:

Villan in MP has table covered w/ $15k+
CO has $2,000
BTN (Osmin 'Odie' Dardon / very tight tourney reg) has $3500
SB (Hero) sitting with $12,000
BB has $3,000

Folded to Villan who opens to $70, CO calls, BTN calls, I pick up in the SB so I call, and the BB calls.

Flop comes: Pot: $350

I check, BB checks, Villan checks, CO checks, BTN now bets $200. I check-raise to $750. BB folds. Villan now tanks for a solid minute then puts in a reraise to $2500. CO & BTN fold back to me.

Thoughts?

fuck it...fold n leave

odie isnt tight wtf! as for the hand...
1. call and then proceed to donkbet allin on a heart turn.
2. when he tank folds show ur hand casually and say "i didn't want to get sucked out on".
3.proceed to win millions with retard image.

On February 06 2010 17:35 n0rthf4ce wrote: odie isnt tight wtf! as for the hand... 1. call and then proceed to donkbet allin on a heart turn. 2. when he tank folds show ur hand casually and say "i didn't want to get sucked out on". 3.proceed to win millions with retard image.

agreed 100%

On February 06 2010 17:45 Roman wrote: Show nested quote + On February 06 2010 17:35 n0rthf4ce wrote: odie isnt tight wtf! as for the hand... 1. call and then proceed to donkbet allin on a heart turn. 2. when he tank folds show ur hand casually and say "i didn't want to get sucked out on". 3.proceed to win millions with retard image. agreed 100%

33 = 88 (or almost 88) here am I correct?

i'd be shitting in my pants

If he has AA which is what we are trying to make fold by donking a heart turn, chance is pretty big its a heart with it. And he wont fold that.

33 is beat by 88 here! :-)

I'm not used to playing 600bb deep... I don't know

Call and hit quads? Or do like peachy said, but it doesn't seem all that good to me lolol

wooo sonnen, pound that @#$@#% out! Round 2 gogogogo!

On February 06 2010 21:47 Zanjong wrote: If he has AA which is what we are trying to make fold by donking a heart turn, chance is pretty big its a heart with it. And he wont fold that.

On February 06 2010 21:47 Zanjong wrote: If he has AA which is what we are trying to make fold by donking a heart turn, chance is pretty big its a heart with it. And he wont fold that.

a

what if he calls and the turn isnt a heart and is a complete blank?

Odie is too tight peachy. More of a nit than someone that's tight, slightly different.

I'd just get it in on this flop. he'll put you on a draw and call it off with AK all day long so just ship it all in over his 2500.

plus ur "losing every hand image" will help play into a lighter call of ur ship

On February 07 2010 23:11 thewh00sel wrote: plus ur "losing every hand image" will help play into a lighter call of ur ship

wait people call 6bi with top pair top kicker? at 10/20? Jesus Christ my head just exploded

yep

shoving is absolutely atrocious. pretty sure he doesnt even 3bet Axhh and his range is skewed towards bluffs/sets, and by bluffs i mean like 67hh or something that probably doesnt have much value in calling in his eyes.

id prob call and check the turn and make a read but i dont mind folding honestly

and odie from my experience isnt tight, hes a fucking loose maniac

Assuming Daut's post is not a level and having played live quite a lot(some of the games were deep,some not,the level of opponents is much lower for sure but still..),I have a couple of questions:

From some of the live threads I read,I've noticed that if Hero is 400bb+ and the villain covers the stacking range is only nuts..

I know that the game is much different when 400bb+ deep but still isnt't it quite exploitable to stack off with nuts only and fold as good as 3rd nuts hands

And why do we even call with small pp or suited connectors,when it is very hard to flop stone cold nuts with them.I mean if you flop

A83hh with 33,isn't that a dream flop we have been waiting for?Same thing is with hands like 67s,78s,(which generally have great impied odds,esp IP) or we play them only for str8 value since of we flop flush we are not anxious to put the money in the middle?

gruzerz, its definitely hugely exploitable to be folding a hand this strong, but luckily our opponent would never in a million years expect us to fold 333 here so playing a GTO strategy here would be wrong.

well, the reason calling with a small pocket here is ok is because there are a few players in between who could end up having a very wide range of hands and if we get it in vs them for 50-200bb we are ecstatic. and we are being offered pretty ridiculous pot odds since there are a few callers. if this was a situation where the 15k competent player raised and it folded to us in the sb then i would almost certainly just fold and avoid playing oop 600bb deep.

and yes this could be considered a dream flop, but if we shove and he calls do you think we are >25% vs his range? assuming we are 25% we are just lighting money on fire, youre 25% in a 24k pot which means youre just donating 6k. if he folds 50% to our shove then you are still losing close to 1500 each time this hand plays out. i dont really like the sound of that.


i personally think leading the flop is a much better idea. if the deep player raises then call and check call the turn, keeping the pot smaller vs him, and choosing to inflate the pot vs the shallower players.

Reading all this makes me feel so good

jesus what kind of deep stack players are you guys playing against, we're probably 60-70% against your average super deep player's range at a 10-20 game. esp a game that's going on during LAPC tournament series. What a bunch of nits. You see 30k pots all the fucking time where player A has AQo and the other guy has bottom two and gets it in and it holds. Just look at the guy and get a read on him and stack him or fold depending on if he looks like he's about to have a heart attack or not.

Lead the flop. It will give you more control over the pot size, allowing you to get it in vs the shorter stacks and check call vs the deep stack.

On February 08 2010 18:26 Lyric wrote: Lead the flop. It will give you more control over the pot size, allowing you to get it in vs the shorter stacks and check call vs the deep stack.

i agree with this

leading the flop is probably best. i think c/c flop (if you get to checks around, him betting) is about a millionx better than c/r when he only has 3500, its 5 way and your the next to act + sb. once everyone folds you can lead some turns or check/raise (or c/c) depending on if hes an attacker or really what his deal is.

plus sometimes someone else will c/c an ace too and thats more money in the pot - and if it gets to 3way+ on the turn id generally always lead turn

Daut,I suppose if we get it in on this flop this deep we can't expect to get called by alot worse(maybe A8 or AJhh+),but since in your 1st post u write u have nothing against folding flop,I was quite confused

Now it all makes sense and the line u suggested is clearly superiour.Tnx

i see a dumb scared kid trying to win a pot and/or find out where hes at

minraise it back, FIND OUT WHERE YOU'RE AT

On February 08 2010 22:30 PoorUser wrote: leading the flop is probably best. i think c/c flop (if you get to checks around, him betting) is about a millionx better than c/r when he only has 3500, its 5 way and your the next to act + sb. once everyone folds you can lead some turns or check/raise (or c/c) depending on if hes an attacker or really what his deal is. plus sometimes someone else will c/c an ace too and thats more money in the pot - and if it gets to 3way+ on the turn id generally always lead turn

best post. i really like this logic a lot. i personally lead a tonnn in my live game when there are fish involved. to isolate them, protect in situations where flops might get checked back. other reasons too i can't think of atm. in multiway pots its really important to imo. Also i guess a benefit is you decide the pot size like lyrics said. So you can prevent the pot from going to a 3bet spot where you dont want it to by making sure that it only goes to a single reraise most of the time. We really want 4 bets with this hand over the course of all 3 streets, imo. Most of the time anyway, i can see stacking off vs fish for more than that. But aside wierd dynamics i would say that we have all our options open with leading and also garanteed control without having to take it away from someone later in the hand.

wh00sel is accurate re: the ranges shown down in big pots between regs in these games

lol no he isnt. That's only the stories you hear and those hands are usually vs the massive fish who don't care about money. Most of the "wild action" comes from the stacks that sit 2k deep, that are dumb regs that will show up w really goofy ranges trying to bluff you with retarded lines because they don't have much sitting in front of them. Also that has nothing to do w this hand, just assume villan is your very competent internet player.

I kinda just wanna know: as played what do people do with a set here? Since I'm actually not hero in this hand, I'm just curious as to what people will do w a set here.

It would depend on live reads, but I don't mind folding. Escalating this pot against a good player with a huge stack out of position was a fairly large error, and folding might be the best way out.

I wouldn't fault him for calling and checking the turn either.

i dont really mind the c/r that much if you think you can get full value out of AK or 2p when it bricks, which you probably can based on your image in this game. however his reraising range and calling range are MUCH different IMO and this turns into a WA/WB situation vs AA or random air/random hearts with the latter part of the range being very unlikely. TBH if he's going to tank for a minute and then put in this raise he should have a turn plan, and if I were him my most likely turn plan if you checked is to bet blank turn and shove blank river no matter what I had because you can never have AA. There is not really a good alternative here and based on all the action that happened on the flop I'd probably fold.

This is my advice, but in reality I would never fold, so u assholes better not exploit me.

On February 09 2010 20:47 n0rthf4ce wrote: i dont really mind the c/r that much if you think you can get full value out of AK or 2p when it bricks, which you probably can based on your image in this game.

huh you realize that the guy he is checkraising is not the guy 6bi deep and has already checked

On February 10 2010 02:46 PoorUser wrote: Show nested quote + On February 09 2010 20:47 n0rthf4ce wrote: i dont really mind the c/r that much if you think you can get full value out of AK or 2p when it bricks, which you probably can based on your image in this game. huh you realize that the guy he is checkraising is not the guy 6bi deep and has already checked

oh yea. i did realize that 1st time around then i forgot when i wrote the serious post

On February 10 2010 02:46 PoorUser wrote: Show nested quote + On February 09 2010 20:47 n0rthf4ce wrote: i dont really mind the c/r that much if you think you can get full value out of AK or 2p when it bricks, which you probably can based on your image in this game. huh you realize that the guy he is checkraising is not the guy 6bi deep and has already checked

lol i didnt even notice this, this goes from probably a fold to a SNAP FOLD

Oh snap, I thought the villain was the cbettor. Yeah I like ur line and I like a fold vs the cold checkraise over checkraise.

On February 10 2010 07:35 Daut wrote: Show nested quote + On February 10 2010 02:46 PoorUser wrote:   On February 09 2010 20:47 n0rthf4ce wrote: i dont really mind the c/r that much if you think you can get full value out of AK or 2p when it bricks, which you probably can based on your image in this game. huh you realize that the guy he is checkraising is not the guy 6bi deep and has already checked lol i didnt even notice this, this goes from probably a fold to a SNAP FOLD

never a snapfold, we have a set!

On February 10 2010 23:40 n0rthf4ce wrote: Show nested quote + On February 10 2010 07:35 Daut wrote:   On February 10 2010 02:46 PoorUser wrote:   On February 09 2010 20:47 n0rthf4ce wrote: i dont really mind the c/r that much if you think you can get full value out of AK or 2p when it bricks, which you probably can based on your image in this game. huh you realize that the guy he is checkraising is not the guy 6bi deep and has already checked lol i didnt even notice this, this goes from probably a fold to a SNAP FOLD never a snapfold, we have a set!

it's daut. O_O

id fold. but im doomer..
even daut calls me a nit... and then spits on me =(

What's villain's image of you? Do you check/raise with draws?

On February 11 2010 18:03 MadJukes wrote: What's villain's image of you? Do you check/raise with draws?

rofl

On February 11 2010 02:47 DooMeR wrote: id fold. but im doomer.. even daut calls me a nit... and then spits on me =(

lol

The actual hand goes as follows: I'm Villan here and action proceeds the same way, except Odie Dardon on button had a set and folded / young kid in the SB snap muck what I assume was air or a flush draw. Kinda wanted to see what people do w sets in the young kids spot thou since at the time I feel like I'm getting both players entire ranges to fold.

I had

On February 14 2010 14:29 JonnyCosMo wrote: The actual hand goes as follows: I'm Villan here and action proceeds the same way, except Odie Dardon on button had a set and folded / young kid in the SB snap muck what I assume was air or a flush draw. Kinda wanted to see what people do w sets in the young kids spot thou since at the time I feel like I'm getting both players entire ranges to fold. I had

cosmowned.

On February 14 2010 14:29 JonnyCosMo wrote: The actual hand goes as follows: I'm Villan here and action proceeds the same way, except Odie Dardon on button had a set and folded / young kid in the SB snap muck what I assume was air or a flush draw. Kinda wanted to see what people do w sets in the young kids spot thou since at the time I feel like I'm getting both players entire ranges to fold. I had

odie did not fold a set.

so you put the sb on air/flushdraw and raised with a7hh?

Who the f*** folds sets for 160bb in a live game?

On February 15 2010 06:44 PoorUser wrote: so you put the sb on air/flushdraw and raised with a7hh?

was assuming thats what he had when he folded so fast o.O

regardless of what you put them on. i love it =] vwell played sir

however he still shouldn't be calling with a set of 3s vs ur potential range if AXs is the only bluff in your range. which is even funnier? amirite... -.-

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL PU