25-50 lets spew vs the fish

Villain is the mark in the game. His 3bet calling range is huge. His flop calling range is a lot and he bets a lot when checked to (although Im not sure with which kind of hands). With this information I think my turn plan should clearly be check/shove but how do we feel after he pots it leaving only ~1.2k left behind?

Submitted by : Smuft

***** Hand History for Game 1922919256 ***** IPoker
$5000.00 USD NL Texas Holdem - Wednesday, October 28, 09:24:15 ET 2009
Table Novorzhev No DP Real Money
Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: HerbSuperb87 $10368.00 USD
Seat 3: BOMBE666 $9270.00 USD
Seat 5: vadik071 $5756.00 USD
Seat 6: iRevolutionize $6313.00 USD
Seat 8: Hero $5075.00 USD
Seat 10: WINNINGBIG85 $6395.00 USD
iRevolutionize posts small blind [$25.00 USD].
Hero posts big blind [$50.00 USD].

Holecards(Odds)
Dealt to Hero
WINNINGBIG85 folds
HerbSuperb87 folds
BOMBE666 folds
vadik071 raises [$150.00 USD]
iRevolutionize folds
Hero raises [$425.00 USD]
vadik071 calls [$325.00 USD]

Flop(Odds) (Pot : $925.00)

   
Hero bets [$750.00 USD]
vadik071 calls [$750.00 USD]

Turn (Pot : $2,425.00)

   
Hero checks
vadik071 bets [$2475.00 USD]
Hero raises [$3850.00 USD]

On October 28 2009 19:02 RaSZi wrote: i dont really like to 3-bet pf here,

3bet seems fine to me

id probably c/f the turn though, i think you're beat a lot with his sizing

BB had been squeezing a lot and this is easy value 3bet vs the fish. When I flat here BB can also profitably call with a ton of hands with this fish in the pot which is obviously bad for me. Isolation and value via the 3bet clearly the way to go with these variables imo.

multiway pots with QJs = bad for you?

Smuft, you ARE the BB in this hand ...

That too

If he bets a lot when checked to and his calling range pf is very wide, just check raise the flop? As played I think this is a check fold on the turn after he pots it. Fish potting the turn is usually an indication that they have hit it hard. Surely you can find a better spot than this to get it in vs him and risk him hit and running.

disagree with all the posts so far (other than midian's, lolol).
3betting pre has to be best, our hand plays great for value vs fish with very wide btn open/call range. I can see an argument for just calling if we were in BB (i still think 3betting is better tho) but there is no argument for just calling in SB when 3betting is a good option for reasons smuft stated

gin flop time to start pushing some moneys in. check raise flop would be a crap play, why would we want to blow villain off all the hands he could have after he puts in one bet that we couldve valueowned for much more with a better line, like bet (planning to 3bai) / bet (planning to call) / shove, or bet/crai. i think youre being results oriented cause u know what the turn card is gonna be loco

as for what the op is actually asking, lets look at what the fact he potted instead of a standard bet does to his bluff range that floated flop here. now we have to rule out a lot of his flop floating range since only bluffs that now have decent equity will commit themselves, i.e. some combo of single club and pair or straight draw (79, two broadway cards with a club, Kc with a pair, etc). and since we're ruling out a lot of his bluffs that means the overall amount of bluffs left in his range after his turn pot is not as big compared to the number of possible made hands.

as for what him potting turn does for his value range instead of betting a standard amount of halfpot or whatever, you might argue that his strong hands should want to try and get value and so he should bet the same as what he should bet with floats that are planning to bet/fold and so him potting turn might mean hes semibluffing and trying to pick up the pot hoping for a fold. against a weak reg this argument would be pretty compelling but against this description of more fishy wild player it becomes very possible that he can be potting turn here with strong made hands that don't like how the board is heating up with 3 clubs and are vulnerable to a fourth club, so they'd rather just protect their hand and commit themselves now in the big pot before they can get sucked out on. So the fact he potted (vs a standard bet size) shouldn't reduce your weighting of how likely he is to play sets/2pairs/turned tpgk/even a baby flush like this as much as it might for another player.

so overall it seems him potting turn narrows down and strengthens his bluff range (we never get to win uncontested now, he always gets it in with some equity when hes bluffing), and may even add weight to his value range if anything. If it was marginal to crai vs a standard bet then him betting pot if anything will swing this towards a c/f imo.

lol at me being BB... pretty gosu to put 4k more into a pot in a bad spot and then on top of it not even know which position I'm playing from.

solid post Ket

i like kets analysis a lot. although i will say for people saying when fish pot turn its strong and such things. that u really should pay more attention to each fishes tendencies differently because there are tons of fish that do things for different reasons.

i think its super close and if it was the Ad i would argue crai but for the reasons ket said i think cf is best
i am torn about the 3bet tbh i think flat or 3bet are both close my problem is if he calls tons postflop we are inflating the pot OOP with a fish that is gonna be hard to make money off if we dont hit our hand. its close, but i prob flat this and 3bet KJs+/KQo+ so yea thats real close

btw more on fish tendencies. have u guys played with scout ffs? ok i rest my case lol

I missed the part where Smuft said that the fish called with a lot on flops so I was just going with the info that he bets a lot when checked to so I thought that it was a better idea to check/raise. Betting has definitely more value with this info.

and Doomer what I said is just a general thing that I have observed. Of course it's always dependant on the player's tendencies. But Smuft did not mention anything about this guy's tendencies for potting so as a general consensus I would argue that this is a strong hand more often than a bluff or semi-bluff, and his semi-bluffs have a lot of equity against us like Ket mentioned making this a fold.

<3 the 3bet pre, you guys are insane. id rather 3bet QJs than TT vs a guy who pretty much calls every 3bet.
bet flop is best.

as for turn, yikes, i have no clue, if he bets everytime you check then hands like T9 JT J9 are a huge part of his range and i would get it in

Really Daut? I mean, we haven't been told a ton about his post flop tendencies but the impression I get is he calls too much and is aggro vs checks. Doesn't that minimize our barrelling opportunities and make it more important to actually have a hand? I suppose it depends on how unbluffable he is. I think the differences between his tendencies in a single raised pot and 3 bet pot are also fairly important to make the decision.

I suppose I just don't think we have enough information to go one way or another but the information we do have makes me less inclined to be 3betting fairly wide when I'm closing the action.

I agree with freak here, I mean the 3bet is obv good if he calls a lot and is fit or fold post or is just a passive station, but since we assume we dont have much fold equity pre or post and we basically have only good implied odds I think this is not great being oop and all. About the turn I have no idea, c/r seems pretty marginal esp with his big bet but I cant tell since that bet can mean different things from different players .

Oh and obviously I think a flop bet is mandatory since we hit jin and are going to stack him a ton, only we got the worse turn card in the deck in this case

check/folding turn sounds like a good plan

i really have no idea what to do here

i mean, i like the way you've played the hand so far i have nooooooooo clue what id do on this turn man, everything points to him not having a flush, but theres no reason why he can't play an ace or a set this way...he could also have like KcJ or something which has pretty good EQ vs u. id prob just shove it in like you did, show him we're gambling with him and we'll get much more action later IMO.

lol 3betting QJ here is not only good, its the only option bitches.

FYL turn, betting sux cuz he will fold all worst hands, i think its bet to let it go this time.