NL1: 3bet light, double gutter

Submitted by : exalted

Full Tilt Poker Game #13098561260: Table Forhan (6 max) - $0.50/$1 - Pot Limit Hold'em - 10:50:09 ET - 2009/06/29
Seat 1: exaltedsky ($100)
Seat 2: dybc500 ($99.75)
Seat 4: drei1padsvb ($267.70)
Seat 5: RobinHUD ($124.60)
Seat 6: DerPinguine ($113.40)
dybc500 posts the small blind of $0.50
drei1padsvb posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #1

Holecards
Dealt to exaltedsky
SCOTT--CRAZY sits down
SCOTT--CRAZY adds $50
RobinHUD has 15 seconds left to act
RobinHUD raises to $3.50
DerPinguine folds
exaltedsky raises to $12
dybc500 folds
drei1padsvb folds
RobinHUD calls $8.50

Flop (Pot : $25.50)

   
RobinHUD checks
exaltedsky

If you know that villain will call your 3Bets light, then you want to get it in and expect him to fold most of the time. I expect to fold out all his weaker hands as well as TT, JJ and AK pretty much all the time. QQ sometimes, though much more rarely. Here I would check and shove over turn bet, regardless what card comes. If he checks turn I check and if he bets river, shove over his river bet. If he checks river, I just shove then. All of this is regardless of what cards come. Though if he is likely to call you light, there isn't anything wrong with playing a bit trappy and letting him bluff if you hit your draw.

If you were OOP, I'd check-sh again regardless of street whenever he gets the balls to bet. Though I do feel the need to point out that 3betting 86o OOP vs UTG open would be HORRID under most circumstances.

Of course, all this assumes he is not suspicious of you and you haven't been lagtardy lately at this table.

However, the sendoff point for this hand should be why DID you 3B his UTG R with 86o in the first place? I think that's important for this entire hand pre-flop and post. I mean 86o has almost no potential what so ever and no card removal effect. When you are 3betting him with it, you are basically saying that 3betting 2 napkins in this spot versus this player is profitable. So what were your thoughts. Base your post-flop play on that. Because if you are 3betting total junk and then don't really know how to proceed post-flop, you are likely better off folding in the first place.

If he is c/r happy in a 3bet pot, I will always check behind. Other than that, I would bet 15 and check turn.

I don't really know oop because I will never have 86o in a 3bet pot oop, but I would probably c/shove flop.

if u 3-bet THAT and then don't know how to play it on THAT flop..

U basically flop the nuts,just get it in

i usually check against this type of player and bet a lot of turns when checked to

On June 29 2009 13:03 gruzerz wrote: if u 3-bet THAT and then don't know how to play it on THAT flop.. U basically flop the nuts,just get it in

you are an idiot

phexac wtf are you talking about

On June 29 2009 22:50 Bullshit wrote: phexac wtf are you talking about

Poker. If you noticed, this whole site is devoted to it.

lol,just by making this thread u prove my point..

Why the F*** u 3-bet with 68o?To show how cool u r?To make an image?Answer urself these questions instead of asking "I 3-bet and now I have no idea what to do,pls help..."

sometimes you just gotta 3bet

and i am with timdawg on the free card here but if he calls wide enough pre cbet is better

On June 29 2009 13:03 gruzerz wrote: if u 3-bet THAT and then don't know how to play it on THAT flop.. U basically flop the nuts,just get it in

this is a dumb advice

On June 29 2009 23:29 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2009 13:03 gruzerz wrote: if u 3-bet THAT and then don't know how to play it on THAT flop.. U basically flop the nuts,just get it in this is a dumb advice

this is a dumber post for sure

i'm not really a fan of bet/shove or c and reeval turn....

this spot just sucks, i think i'm leaning towards the check after thinking about it for a while

i think that on instinct i would bet/shove, but checking seems to be the better option

I cbet around 17 ~ most of time he's gonna call and check/raise turn if he has a made hand, so even if you miss turn you still get a free river card ^_^

You got 2 ways to play this. Passive, or aggressive. You can take the freecard expecting him to c/r the flop with anything. If you hit you are likely taking a big chunk out of him with his entire range except for AK, which he can fold. All other PP's and if youre lucky, sets earn you a full stack practically no matter what. I like this line better because it's safer and can be employed over and over again with your entire range in future hands.

orrrr

you can bet/shove over any flop raise he makes, and have a good chance at folding out everything BUT a set, at least if you like to gamble it up a little.

prob check and then bet turn if checked to again, cbet/shove here is gross, u have at best 30% equity and villain is probably never c/r this flop as a bluff in a 3bet pot cuz it's 100nl and pretty much no one bluffs in 3bet pots.

On June 29 2009 12:12 exalted wrote: How would you play this OOP? bet small/shove? check/raise?

If i have 86o OOP in a 3bet pot i'm obv drunk for the first time in my life so probably just open shove, how else would u possibly have this hand OOP in a 3bet pot

On June 30 2009 02:41 palak wrote: prob check and then bet turn if checked to again, cbet/shove here is gross, u have at best 30% equity and villain is probably never c/r this flop as a bluff in a 3bet pot cuz it's 100nl and pretty much no one bluffs in 3bet pots. Show nested quote + On June 29 2009 12:12 exalted wrote: How would you play this OOP? bet small/shove? check/raise? If i have 86o OOP in a 3bet pot i'm obv drunk for the first time in my life so probably just open shove, how else would u possibly have this hand OOP in a 3bet pot

3betting the bu from the bb?

bet flop, bet turn

actually nm cause ace high is gonna own ur soul often, i think i just check the flop and bet the turn

On June 30 2009 03:14 traxamillion wrote: Show nested quote + On June 30 2009 02:41 palak wrote: prob check and then bet turn if checked to again, cbet/shove here is gross, u have at best 30% equity and villain is probably never c/r this flop as a bluff in a 3bet pot cuz it's 100nl and pretty much no one bluffs in 3bet pots.   On June 29 2009 12:12 exalted wrote: How would you play this OOP? bet small/shove? check/raise? If i have 86o OOP in a 3bet pot i'm obv drunk for the first time in my life so probably just open shove, how else would u possibly have this hand OOP in a 3bet pot 3betting the bu from the bb?

and i chose 86o to do it? In that case villains stl is prob above 50 and his fold to 3bet is like 98% and now that he called i assume he's slowplaying aces and just c/c flop c/f turn hoping to bink it on the turn and stack him. I just really rarely 3bet this type of hand.

wtf are you all talking about O_O hahahaha

bet if he calls 3bet wide, check if hes a nit

if he raises your bet then fold if he isn't doing it constantly, and shove if he is

if he calls your flop bet barrel most turns

i think he's not c/cing this flop often, he's either c/r or folding imo

that seems to be an argument for a flop check, if he bets too much when it checks through on the turn, i can always shove over his turn bet

i think if this was oop, i like a bet small/3bet shove

if you guys aren't 3betting this sometime, you guys are playing your own cards too much and not your oppo

there are spots where 3betting 23o/27o is +ev

what locoo said.

and please...

On June 30 2009 04:28 exalted wrote: there are spots where 3betting 23o/27o is +ev

elaborate?

On June 29 2009 12:32 phexac wrote: If you know that villain will call your 3Bets light, then you want to get it in and expect him to fold most of the time. I expect to fold out all his weaker hands as well as TT, JJ and AK pretty much all the time. QQ sometimes, though much more rarely. Here I would check and shove over turn bet, regardless what card comes. If he checks turn I check and if he bets river, shove over his river bet. If he checks river, I just shove then. All of this is regardless of what cards come. Though if he is likely to call you light, there isn't anything wrong with playing a bit trappy and letting him bluff if you hit your draw. If you were OOP, I'd check-sh again regardless of street whenever he gets the balls to bet. Though I do feel the need to point out that 3betting 86o OOP vs UTG open would be HORRID under most circumstances. Of course, all this assumes he is not suspicious of you and you haven't been lagtardy lately at this table. However, the sendoff point for this hand should be why DID you 3B his UTG R with 86o in the first place? I think that's important for this entire hand pre-flop and post. I mean 86o has almost no potential what so ever and no card removal effect. When you are 3betting him with it, you are basically saying that 3betting 2 napkins in this spot versus this player is profitable. So what were your thoughts. Base your post-flop play on that. Because if you are 3betting total junk and then don't really know how to proceed post-flop, you are likely better off folding in the first place.

Shove 88 into 25.5 pot on the river?

On June 29 2009 23:56 gruzerz wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2009 23:29 Baal wrote:   On June 29 2009 13:03 gruzerz wrote: if u 3-bet THAT and then don't know how to play it on THAT flop.. U basically flop the nuts,just get it in this is a dumb advice this is a dumber post for sure

no, not really, what you said makes no sense and is quite dumb.

Im not even sure if you read the hand properly

So what r u saying?

That it is very bad and dumb to bet/call flop,bet turn,shove river?Given u have abssolutely no info on the villain's 3-bet calling ranges,tendencies etc.?

The main question for the OP still is WHY he 3-bet?If he cannot answer that noone can tell him "THIS IS THE BEST LINE IN THIS SPOT".

In a vacuum I highly doubt it will be ever -EV to bet/get it in on flop or turn.Alot of ppl say check behind..So you are saying you check behind with KK/QQ/AA?or with some fd/combo draw?

P.S. Yes I have read the HH even the 1st time.And if you think some line is stupid/dumb you can at least elaborate why,or suggest a better one...

On June 30 2009 05:52 bongky wrote: what locoo said. and please... Show nested quote + On June 30 2009 04:28 exalted wrote: there are spots where 3betting 23o/27o is +ev elaborate?

You can 3bet some people profitably simply through PF FE+ 2pair/straight% or dumb tards on NL25 who overcall with 22-99 and fold 80% of flops -.-

On June 30 2009 12:31 gruzerz wrote: So what r u saying? That it is very bad and dumb to bet/call flop,bet turn,shove river?Given u have abssolutely no info on the villain's 3-bet calling ranges,tendencies etc.? The main question for the OP still is WHY he 3-bet?If he cannot answer that noone can tell him "THIS IS THE BEST LINE IN THIS SPOT". In a vacuum I highly doubt it will be ever -EV to bet/get it in on flop or turn.Alot of ppl say check behind..So you are saying you check behind with KK/QQ/AA?or with some fd/combo draw? P.S. Yes I have read the HH even the 1st time.And if you think some line is stupid/dumb you can at least elaborate why,or suggest a better one...

because saying bet/bet/bet here is the only option here or to play it as the nuts is just dumb, as i said there are many many ways to play this

If he's c/r flop in 3 bet pots too much , I would like to bet something small to induce and then shove over his raise

anyways I dont like your 3bet with that junk , i wonder how do you expect to make this +ev if you dont bluff like motherfucker on many boards? when you raise this junk any gutter goes dude X_X

lol why would we want to get CR when we have 8 high? we think he CR air and folds to shove? what in the fuck are you people talking about this thread has terrible terrible advice.

This is a board where a big ace can get trigger happy having what he thinks are at least 7 outs and he would fucking rape us with ace high here, way to outplay yourselves if you "induce" raise.

check behind and you will be able to bluff air on the river or stack off monsters instead of making him play his hand perfectly.

I'm not a fan of assuming we have fold equity vs any over pair. Dangerous assumption unless proven wrong imo. That said if we fold out All the busted overcards we still have enough fold equity vs his range to justify shipping. and we have decent outs vs the hands that call.

gambollllll

we're in position

On June 30 2009 04:28 exalted wrote: i think he's not c/cing this flop often, he's either c/r or folding imo that seems to be an argument for a flop check, if he bets too much when it checks through on the turn, i can always shove over his turn bet i think if this was oop, i like a bet small/3bet shove if you guys aren't 3betting this sometime, you guys are playing your own cards too much and not your oppo there are spots where 3betting 23o/27o is +ev

While there certainly are spots where 3betting 72o is profitable, 3betting just because you figure you gotta 3bet this sometimes is just dumb. And it seems that that is what you are doing here seeing is you 3bet and then you are like OMG FLOP wat do I do.

i think i start by checking back. I think he'll fold his A high hands on the turn unimproved a fair amount of the time, and if the 3 rolls off then we'll stack him anyway. I think if he c/r here we have no fold equity and we're crushed by his range, but like baal said we have the possibility of playing a monster if the 3 or 7 rolls off.

On July 01 2009 05:27 Baal wrote: lol why would we want to get CR when we have 8 high? we think he CR air and folds to shove? what in the fuck are you people talking about this thread has terrible terrible advice. This is a board where a big ace can get trigger happy having what he thinks are at least 7 outs and he would fucking rape us with ace high here, way to outplay yourselves if you "induce" raise. check behind and you will be able to bluff air on the river or stack off monsters instead of making him play his hand perfectly.

ya with no reads jamming over c/r is horrible but if you have aggressive dynamic going on and he's calling pf and c/r alot of boards jamming over c/r will never be bad .If you halfpot it and he raises you have a decent FE.
Such a dynamic is very rare in 6max but i mentioned it because of your 86o 3bet his loose stats and c/r or fold. (btw fold to 3bet% ?)


If you check back you get a free card and if he bets like 18 on turn when you call he will eliminate draws and overcards from your range and will probably shutdown with his bluffs on river. But some turn and river cards can make this hand tricky.
If Ace hits the turn and he bets do you call with intention to jam river if he checks?

On July 01 2009 05:27 Baal wrote: what in the fuck are you people talking about this thread has terrible terrible advice.

I facepalmed like literally 4-5 times in this thread.

phexac, pretty sure i completely crush you in knowledge of 3bet pots

this is a hand where there are different avenues of play; what is optimal is obviously dependent on opponent's potential ranges in this spot

it is a good hand for discussion, not one where i am going "OMG flop, what do i do"

i already PMed you to stop posting in my threads, yet you persist to litter with your useless advice

To: phexac Posts: Subject: hey.. Date: 5/29 22:05 please stop posting in my threads thanks you really have no idea how to play poker and it tilts me so hard to read your responses

did you get the memo?

[deleted for brevity]

On July 03 2009 14:08 exalted wrote: phexac, pretty sure i completely crush you in knowledge of 3bet pots this is a hand where there are different avenues of play; what is optimal is obviously dependent on opponent's potential ranges in this spot it is a good hand for discussion, not one where i am going "OMG flop, what do i do" i already PMed you to stop posting in my threads, yet you persist to litter with your useless advice Show nested quote + To: phexac Posts: Subject: hey.. Date: 5/29 22:05 please stop posting in my threads thanks you really have no idea how to play poker and it tilts me so hard to read your responses did you get the memo?

Don't really check my messages very often, but that's pretty funny especially considering this thread

On July 03 2009 14:08 exalted wrote: phexac, pretty sure i completely crush you in knowledge of 3bet pots

LOOOL

Internet pokerz dick waving contest

wtf is going on here -____-

I check behind here because he could shove all sorts of overpairs here and i'm behind all those hands.

I dont know wtf is going on in this thread but personally Id bet this flop and get it in if I have to, if he calls the flop and turn bricks off Id take a free card as he will never fold then. Id rather check back A high here that has some showdown value.

On July 01 2009 05:27 Baal wrote: lol why would we want to get CR when we have 8 high? we think he CR air and folds to shove? what in the fuck are you people talking about this thread has terrible terrible advice. This is a board where a big ace can get trigger happy having what he thinks are at least 7 outs and he would fucking rape us with ace high here, way to outplay yourselves if you "induce" raise. check behind and you will be able to bluff air on the river or stack off monsters instead of making him play his hand perfectly.

100bb deep checking is goot (I still like betting, but I'm an idiot), esp since we have 0 fold equity against a check raise range, your hand plays good w/ free cards + you can bluff a bunch of turns if you want / use your position of he continus to check

On July 03 2009 14:08 exalted wrote: phexac, pretty sure i completely crush you in knowledge of 3bet pots this is a hand where there are different avenues of play; what is optimal is obviously dependent on opponent's potential ranges in this spot it is a good hand for discussion, not one where i am going "OMG flop, what do i do" i already PMed you to stop posting in my threads, yet you persist to litter with your useless advice Show nested quote + To: phexac Posts: Subject: hey.. Date: 5/29 22:05 please stop posting in my threads thanks you really have no idea how to play poker and it tilts me so hard to read your responses did you get the memo?

Tone down the ego when you post an extremely easy hand IMO. He's tryin to help.

multi-way flame war~

i think exalted has a point :X

and ty baal for goot advices

All I know is that I find it really funny that phexac thinks villain is ever folding TT+ on this board :D

With current dynamic where we are 3betting with 68o I wouldn't be unhappy getting it in here with 77.

As played unless he folds in a lot of 3bet pots postflop I would just check and take the free card and see what happens on the turn.

Why would we want to get lead into us with his entire range when the turn bricks off when we can bet the flop and if he folds Ax good if he doesnt who cares we are flipping vs that range.

Because he 'should' shove over our cbet with any Ax and I doubt he'll fold a pocketpair.

Yea so what we are still at like what 42, 43% equity ? And the other way we get shat on on most turns, like even if an 8 comes and he bets out are we really happy calling there?

On July 06 2009 07:51 Twisted wrote: All I know is that I find it really funny that phexac thinks villain is ever folding TT+ on this board :D With current dynamic where we are 3betting with 68o I wouldn't be unhappy getting it in here with 77. As played unless he folds in a lot of 3bet pots postflop I would just check and take the free card and see what happens on the turn.

As I mentioned in my post, all that is very dependent on how the villain views the hero. While he 3bet 86o in this hand, it does not indicate anything about the way he played before. This could be the fist time he is getting out of line. Obviously, those plays don't have near the same fold equity if the villain knows you 3bet a fair bit against EP raisers and like to make plays. If you don't do it a lot, you can get away with a lot more the times you do chose to 3bet light. And can definitely fold out TT, often JJ and very rarely QQ. Think about it. You raise in EP and a guy who does not 3bet much in those situations all the sudden goes apeshit. You really going to think your TT or JJ is any good?

If there is a different dynamic, obviously check and try to hit is better.

Also note that my line also calls for a check behind. If we think opponent calls light or views us reasonably tight, we can shove over his bets on later streets. If not then we don't make the bluff shove, and my line is exactly the same as the check behind that other people have suggested.

So not really sure what you are disagreeing with in my post. Are you saying that you can't fathom a situation where you fold TT or JJ in EP OOP in 3bet pot post-flop?

My main gripe with the original post is that it gives a very situation-dependent spot and no information what so ever about it. Hence I tried to address several different scenarios. Don't get what you don't get.