AK pf 200bb vs regs

So they are both good tricky players, I kinda feel I have to fold but I dont feel good about it, what is your line here ¿?

Submitted by : EvilSky

PokerStars Game #29882488371: Holdem No Limit ($5/$10) - 2009/06/28 15:55:03 ET
Table Retsina II 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: TheFan83 ($2074.75 in chips)
Seat 2: foxfox1 ($4208 in chips)
Seat 3: 0Human0 ($2048.90 in chips)
Seat 4: pocktnizzles ($1000 in chips)
Seat 5: HardCory ($1000 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero ($2158 in chips)
foxfox1: posts small blind $5
0Human0: posts big blind $10

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
pocktnizzles: folds
HardCory: folds
Hero: raises $20 to $30
TheFan83: raises $60 to $90
foxfox1: folds
0Human0: raises $190 to $280
Hero:¿?

i dont think it worth to fight back with 30$ invested in the pot vs 2 good regs 200BB deep
so i just fold and dont care about it

you don't "invest" in pots, but yea human is cold-bettin oop 2bi deep and if he isn't terribly out of line i don't mind a fold

I usually just fold here and save myself the headache unless the 4bettor is really out of line.

both of these guys can get pretty out of line at times

i dont think folding is the right play

******

5-bet

type "LOL" followed by some censored word in chat

and then 5bet to 670 and call shove

You guys don't think calling is an option?
i guess thefan can call behind alot this deep which makes flop tough to play.

I can't remember the stats of Human but if he's similar to the fan this looks like a 5 bet, & get it in.

Fan is pretty solid, Human is brain damaged... so 5b > folding but folding can't be bad

i'd rather fold here than 5bet/call shove

you call and flop comes 244 do u call allin? no. fold.

On June 29 2009 12:04 Fayth wrote: i'd rather fold here than 5bet/call shove

u clearly do not know 0human0

5bet to 600$, fold to shove.

goddam trolls lol , anyway I guess this is a stalemate so its fine either way.

If you fold AK here then you are folding QQ too? So we are only playing KK+? That doesn't seem right.

With this being CO vs BU vs BB and with the reads that you gave... I'm not interested in folding this.

On June 30 2009 04:37 EvilSky wrote: goddam trolls lol , anyway I guess this is a stalemate so its fine either way.

I was semi-serious, but it MAY be something to consider. You would be risking 570$ to win 410$ so they have to fold 58% of the time. AK theoretically is THE best hand to turn into a bluff vs a range of {AA,KK,air}, because of blockers. I don't know, I just thought it would be fun to put something outside the box out there.

On June 30 2009 05:30 Smuft wrote: If you fold AK here then you are folding QQ too? So we are only playing KK+? That doesn't seem right.

It 'doesn't seem right', because the way we have been taught to play NLHE is to never get too concerned pre-flop when having a hand as strong as QQ, because of the aggressive nature of the games and the ever-existing possibility that our opponent is doing something stupid. Unfortunately it leads to closed-minded discussions when faced with spots like these. Even with players who are better at this game than me.

Do you think on average a good reg will want to cold 4bet -> stack off w/ {AK,QQ} for 200bb? I don't think so (as evidenced by EvilSky's hesitancy to play a hand as strong as AK here). I think usually his range consists of {air,AA,KK}. He WILL be bluffing here a decent amount, because of the fact it looks so strong.

However if we shove and only get called by KK+ our opponents need to be folding over THREE times as often as they hold KK+. That's possible, but it's a bold assumption.

But tomson if 5b bluffing here w AK is good isnt flatting better ?

I'm not saying 5b bluffing is good, it's just an idea I throwed out there.

Calling w/ AK here might be a viable option, but is very difficult against a range of {AA,KK,air}.

- reverse implied odds against KK+ (this forces you to call one street when you hit a K and then fold, which sucks)
- air might bluff you out (cbet etc.)
- air, which has decent equity against a hand like AK, will go to showdown a lot, because you will be afraid to take stabs at boards you missed

another good point is odds are one of them have some kind of pocket pair. if you know he has JJ do you raise, call or push?

On June 30 2009 18:33 Wreckognize wrote: another good point is odds are one of them have some kind of pocket pair. if you know he has JJ do you raise, call or push?

if we can physically see he has JJ this isn't a close descion

5-bet folding was my first thought, but after more thinking it's a preety bad option in a 6-max game where people shoving ranges are not KK+, would work much better if this was full ring or villians were known nits, folding would be a preety big mistake if we are unsure of their shoving range.
It's super close either way, this is probably one of those spots where what you do dosn't matter that much in terms of EV, it just comes down to what metagame you want to establish / what varience you are comfortable with

What about 5bet minraising?

this spot is not a spot you should be asking about in a forum. calling, 5bet/folding, 5bet/calling, folding are all viable options "depending".

if u feel u have to fold then there are probably good reasons for that feeling and you should fold

yeah you can do anything you want here really, but if you feel that your not making money continuing in the hand, then trust yourself and fold it cause you are prob correct

raszi you just dont get it we don't want the fish to improve WTF

raszi lvled rek imo

impossible

On July 02 2009 18:51 RaSZi wrote: Show nested quote + On June 28 2009 19:20 [vital]Myth wrote: type "LOL" followed by some censored word in chat and then 5bet to 670 and call shove jesus christ, can you get unmodded or something? stop giving 'im cool I play superlag andf everything is standard' advice.. every time you post it makes me realize people do not necessarly improve through coaching.

From RaSZi, with love

On July 02 2009 18:51 RaSZi wrote: Show nested quote + On June 28 2009 19:20 [vital]Myth wrote: type "LOL" followed by some censored word in chat and then 5bet to 670 and call shove jesus christ, can you get unmodded or something? stop giving 'im cool I play superlag andf everything is standard' advice.. every time you post it makes me realize people do not necessarly improve through coaching.

except that for the right or wrong reasons myth is 100% right here, and lol if you start folding here vs Human vs his trash in here you will get trampled... wait.. you DO get trampled.

On July 03 2009 03:49 Rekrul wrote: raszi you just dont get it we don't want the fish to improve WTF

discussing hands within a small community is almost meaningless, gotta come after these ridicilous poker traning sites

trampled....lol

silly mexicans

whats funny about it?

Just wanted to say that I got inspired by tomson in this topic and managed to win a pot of 4444 € vs a known LPer at 3/6 thanks to it. Thank you.

On July 05 2009 09:14 DustySwedeDude wrote: Just wanted to say that I got inspired by tomson in this topic and managed to win a pot of 4444 € vs a known LPer at 3/6 thanks to it. Thank you.

elaborate or gtfo

Yeah, do tell.

I and him was deep as hell, some reg was 100bb deep. I raise 99 UTG, reg 3bets from CO or button, I decide that he's a monkey and I want to get it in and the LPer cold4bet to like 150 or something from blinds. I decided it was time to bluff the LPer and get it in with dead money vs monkey so I 4bet to like 450 or something. Regmonkey folds, LPer called and flop comes T9x with two clubs. I cbet like 2/5 pot or so and get shoved on decently fast, obviously snap and holds against AcKc.

Me + LPer has a decent bit of history. Mostly me running hot as hell vs him and winning stuff. He's probably a better pokerplayer though so I try to not get TOO fancy against him too often. Figured that this was a pretty straight forward way to play it since he will never ever bluffshove like +300bb deep and if he just calls I can try to get a showdown and/or own him with position.

Don't think it was really good or anything and I need to do some math on it before I decide if it was a variance fest or just plain bad but it was a fun enough pot.

Also a fairly random connection to this topic, but it was in the back of my head.

who is this lpnetter?

lol dusty that hand was pretty mad spewy and bad imo

lol @ 4betting 99 there, so bad

You guys prefer a fold or set-hunting for 25bb with one reg liable to shove with a decently high frequency left to act vs a good reg with initiative and a not super-defined range?

i think both calling and folding is better than 4-betting