nl200 line

Submitted by : gororokgororok

PokerStars Game #29876229320: Holdem No Limit ($1/$2) - 2009/06/28 19:22:26 CET [2009/06/28 13:22:26 ET]
Table Pasiphae V 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Pappe_Ruk ($200 in chips)
Seat 2: Neoblitz727 ($223 in chips)
Seat 4: gororok ($211.65 in chips)
Seat 5: VeGeTTo89 ($637.25 in chips)
Seat 6: gime2per ($239.45 in chips)
VeGeTTo89: posts small blind $1
gime2per: posts big blind $2

Holecards
Dealt to gororok
Pappe_Ruk: raises $4 to $6
Neoblitz727: folds
gororok: calls $6
VeGeTTo89: folds
gime2per: folds

Flop (Pot : $15.00)

   
Pappe_Ruk: bets $10
gororok: raises $20 to $30
Pappe_Ruk: calls $20

Turn (Pot : $75.00)

   
Pappe_Ruk: checks
gororok: checks

River (Pot : $75.00)

   
Pappe_Ruk: bets $52
gororok: raises $123.65 to $175.65 and is all-in

i like it. Confusing lines are the best way to get paid by regulars + the board is not scary, so nothing kills your action.

i like

I'm not sure I like this. This is great vs the Qx hands in his range, but does he valuebet JJ or worse here on the river? Does he ship the flop with monsters or overpairs? He raised UTG, so there shouldn't be many Qx combos.

On June 28 2009 18:53 edzwoo wrote: I'm not sure I like this. This is great vs the Qx hands in his range, but does he valuebet JJ or worse here on the river? Does he ship the flop with monsters or overpairs? He raised UTG, so there shouldn't be many Qx combos.

Its MP the table is 5 handed. KQ QJ and QTs should be in his range.

I like it too

Yeah you just repped the shit out of JT. I like it.

I don't like it. I would like this line as a bluff, but not when you have showdown value. Unless he is super suspicious of you, you are never getting called by worse here, not even KQ. Against this particular villain, it would have been perfect, if you just called river.

On June 28 2009 23:43 phexac wrote: I don't like it. I would like this line as a bluff, but not when you have showdown value. Unless he is super suspicious of you, you are never getting called by worse here, not even KQ. Against this particular villain, it would have been perfect, if you just called river.

This line is probably the worst bluff line in the history of poker

On June 29 2009 00:35 palak wrote: Show nested quote + On June 28 2009 23:43 phexac wrote: I don't like it. I would like this line as a bluff, but not when you have showdown value. Unless he is super suspicious of you, you are never getting called by worse here, not even KQ. Against this particular villain, it would have been perfect, if you just called river. This line is probably the worst bluff line in the history of poker

Yep when you take non standard line people call you down super light.

On June 28 2009 23:43 phexac wrote: I don't like it. I would like this line as a bluff, but not when you have showdown value. Unless he is super suspicious of you, you are never getting called by worse here, not even KQ. Against this particular villain, it would have been perfect, if you just called river.

wtf???

On June 28 2009 23:43 phexac wrote: I don't like it. I would like this line as a bluff, but not when you have showdown value. Unless he is super suspicious of you, you are never getting called by worse here, not even KQ. Against this particular villain, it would have been perfect, if you just called river.

wtf + 2

this line is phuken brilliant.

There are many bluff-catching hands in addition to Qx hands that will call like TT JJ even 88 77, and not many better hands.

On June 29 2009 13:29 Rande wrote: Show nested quote + On June 28 2009 23:43 phexac wrote: I don't like it. I would like this line as a bluff, but not when you have showdown value. Unless he is super suspicious of you, you are never getting called by worse here, not even KQ. Against this particular villain, it would have been perfect, if you just called river. wtf + 2 this line is phuken brilliant. There are many bluff-catching hands in addition to Qx hands that will call like TT JJ even 88 77, and not many better hands.

So a bluff catching hand is going to bet $52 on the river, as opposed to checking and catching a bluff? Unless he is betting to induce a shove, which I highly doubt.

I'd LOVE this if I knew he ships his monsters on the flop, but I think calling is superior in a vacuum.

On June 29 2009 13:29 Rande wrote: Show nested quote + On June 28 2009 23:43 phexac wrote: I don't like it. I would like this line as a bluff, but not when you have showdown value. Unless he is super suspicious of you, you are never getting called by worse here, not even KQ. Against this particular villain, it would have been perfect, if you just called river. wtf + 2 this line is phuken brilliant. There are many bluff-catching hands in addition to Qx hands that will call like TT JJ even 88 77, and not many better hands.

like edzoo said, it's pretty unlikely those hands will bet the river.

I think from the villians bet sizing that the he has the best hand here =[

KK most likely, but also possibly a set

I don't like because it nails KQ only, and seems to be a spew otherwise most of time with no history. I don't mind villain's line with overpair/set on this board.

On June 29 2009 09:38 HeRoS)eNGagE wrote: Show nested quote + On June 28 2009 23:43 phexac wrote: I don't like it. I would like this line as a bluff, but not when you have showdown value. Unless he is super suspicious of you, you are never getting called by worse here, not even KQ. Against this particular villain, it would have been perfect, if you just called river. wtf???

river is kinda thin, it comes down to how thin he value bets, if his value betting range is KQ+ then this is kinda bad (not sure if a 200NL reg ever bets worse then KQ on this river, since you turned his entire range into bluffcatchers)
I would way perfer this vs someone who you know will bet a hand like QJ w/ the intention of inducing

Basically you need a read on his river tendancies, basing this play on a few light flop floats is not so good

Not sure but think I've seen villain play KK like this. Maybe he'll fold it?

Really don't like it without specific reads on tendencies at these stakes.

His river bet changes everyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyything about his range. So much so that folding river may even be the correct play due to TT's accurate comment 'not sure if a 200NL reg ever bets worse than KQ on this river'.

Past your flop raise he has a bluffcatching range (and he knows hes bluffcatching), a slowplaying range (and he knows hes slowplaying), and JT. Bluffcatchers don't valuebet river. Slowplaying range beats you entirely. JT folds to your shove.

Sounds pointless.

Ya talented tom and FC nail it good in their posts

this is a pretty thin river shove, not a big fan of it.
i'd rather just call.

first thought was call

but after that i wasl ike, wow my hand looks so much like a bluff, if he has a Q he's calling for sure, which he probably would.

but ERROR

he had 2 k's

ERROR

he had 1 k's and 1 q's and pot was shipped to GORAGNAROK

On June 30 2009 12:41 boreHM wrote: Not sure but think I've seen villain play KK like this. Maybe he'll fold it?

this

u r now bluffing

I dunno at first sight it seems kinda bad and a flat is better, but maybe u revolutionized it and found a new way to play it, Im not being sarcastic or anything I just dont know, this might be good.

i really like this if villain is capable of value betting worse than a Q and even then i still like it but it's a bit thin. But i believe you'll get paid a huge % with worse here as it's hard for him to put you on this kind of hand. He'll prob put you on nuts/air and try to hero call 3rd pair.

Def need some he vbets light history in order to make this play imo

bet turn shove river

i think youll see sets, KK and AA here almost always unless the guy is awful.

It looks too thin. As TalentedTom said you'd need to know quite precisely how often hes gonna be valuebetting thin here, and quite honestly i dont think a whole lot of NL200 regs are capable of that in spots like these, let alone creating needed dynamics for it to be profitable. I think your bluffing with the best hand too often here, let alone him barely ever calling with the bottom of his vbing range here. KQ'ish. Call looks good

On July 01 2009 21:23 sniderstyle wrote: bet turn shove river

This is much better than the op's line.

You would be surpriced with the crap they call a shove. This guy too but the problem in this hand is, like some posters said, he bet the river instead of checking which he would probably do with all the hands that I beat T_T

Agree that shoves can look weird.

Overbet shoving (huge) had he checked to you on riv is viable and will get lots of wtf calls from his range which is already heavily weighted to bluffcatching shit weaker than AQ as he didn't bet river.

Once he bets river shoving is disaster town.

agree with u.

as played would you consider folding to the riverbet since most of villian's bettingrange is likely to be very strong? like in future spots. With the taken line im pretty much never folding i think.

I honestly think you can fold river vs lots of standard 200nl regs.

Valuebetting QJ in his shoes here is like awful with no history (and it would have to be weird as fuck history that pretty much never gets developed at these stakes). 'With the taken line im pretty much never folding I think' sounds too much like 'Oh but our hand is soooooooo underrepped, we've shown weakness, got to call' to me, which is something thats thrown around all the time to justify awful calls and I don't like the reasoning. This is a perfect hand/line TO fold in general vs predictableish regs.

Thats not to say id 100% fold river, but im not sure what id do. I wouldn't have taken the raise flop/check behind turn line as basically every way it plays out for us is badbadbad compared to other lines.