Gaza Strip - Page 8

On January 12 2009 05:20 Liquid`Drone wrote: but then taking one side in this conflict is not stupid, as israel deals significantly more damage to the palestinian civilian population than hamas / palestinians deals to israeli civilians I mean, of course : showing sympathy with civilians on both sides is imperative. but logically, palestinian civilians should get more sympathy, as their sufferings are much larger. i mean for fucks sake, numbers are just in 900 palestinians dead, 277 of them children 3950 injured, this probably includes a shitload of amputated legs / arms, e.g. stuff that leaves people enraged for the rest of their lives.. how many israelis died from the rockets launched by hamas prior to this..?

pretty sure its a tiny number, but my question to you is what do you think Israel should have done about it instead. Especially once Hamas had renounced the cease fire.

Edit: 13 Israelis dead since Dec 27 from gunfire and rocket attacks, 10 soldiers 3 civilians.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/0...rael.gaza/index.html?iref=werecommend

Work improving quality of life for citizens in gaza to improve public opinion of israel, and undermine hamas? Certainly this has to be part of any long term solution, but is israel just supposed to put up with regular rocket attacks for years? decades even? Ideally at some point a palestinian police force could start arresting its own citizens for the rocket attacks.

I do think a retaliation could be justified in this case. the problem is that, as always, israels retaliation is way, way out of proportion (and, considering israel has been in war nearly constantly since her creation, she should have learned by now that this does not work. )

obviously, this isn't an easy issue and I clearly cannot claim to know the answer to one of the most debated topics of the world in the past 50 years, but I believe what truly is necessary is a revamping of their domestic politics. settlements need to be gone. road blocks need to go. there needs to be a _genuine_ effort at bridging the gaps between palestinian and israelis where both parts are content to coexist.. history shows over and over again that if a society is segregated where one part dominates the other, the dominated part will revolt.. this has happened so many times it can be considered an inevitability. hence, it is imperative that israel ceases to control the lives of palestinians.. many palestinians are very much opposed to hamas and their tactics (as many israelis believe that israel needs to completely or partially withdraw from the west bank - in a 2003 poll 73% of israelis supported this), but when palestinians day in and day out need to deal with the humiliation the segregation brings (not only the humiliation, it creates far more tangible problems - like not being able to go to work, farmers having trouble getting their work done because they need to spend 3 hours crossing 2 kilometers distance and that kind of bullshit), this strenghtens the support for hamas. palestinian support of hamas has also increased after the israeli invasion of gaza (although numbers are not conclusive yet.. )

its also, obviously, not easy for the israeli settlers to just pack up their bags and leave. this needs to be done in an orderly fashion, and it cannot be expected to happen overnight, so here patience is key.. I don't have the specific knowledge required to know "how" this can be done.

however, I do have the specific knowledge to know that israels method so far has been a complete and utter failure and that they need to look in a different direction.

On January 12 2009 06:11 Fraser wrote: Show nested quote + On January 12 2009 05:23 DustySwedeDude wrote: Except you didn't touch comment on my point that any man who hides behind women and children are a worm I still don't feel like it's fair to compare Israel with Hamas. I don't really care about the democracy aspect THAT much, but still. Hiding behind women and children vs fighting a war wearing uniforms. Also, who the fuck needs proper nuclear weapons? I'm pretty sure I could instruct a couple of random retards on how to make a dirty bomb if I had a nuclear power plant. And, not directet to you but to others. To say that Palestinians aren't people are stupid and sounds a scary, but I could go so far as to say that anyone who supports Hamas knowing their goals and everything lacks any human rights what so ever in my book. I don't think a lack of uniforms is a good point to make. Armies generally dress so as to make themselves as hard to target as possible right? In a jungle its jungle camouflage. If they were to outright distinguish themselves from civillians in front of the israeli army it would be outright suicide. I'm not condoning seeking out places where there are many women and children near by, of course thats low and dispicable, but you can't expect them to be obvious about it either. And unfortunately its alot easier to be discreet about covert operations when there are people to blend in with.

If you try to look like damn three or something I don't mind, if you intentionally put women and children at risk in order to make soldiers harder to kill I'd say you're at best a sub-human without any moral rights what so ever. Also, I'd like to ad that if you dress up in a way that puts Israeli soldiers in a position where they need to risk killing women and children in order to do their job (protect Israel, themselves and their friends/brothers in arms) it would not only be your fault that these people will die, it would also be morally wrong of the soldiers on the other side not to kill any civilian that could pose a threat. Their job, the mission and what they've probably sworn to do is to protect their country, their families and their friends, and if the enemy puts them in a position where they'll have to commit these acts, they need to commit them. Everything else would not only be risking your family's life, but it would also increase the likelihood that civilians would continue to be put at risk since it would make the strategy successful.

There's one thing to risk your own life for a cause, there's an entirely different to risk the life of other people, women and children.

On January 12 2009 05:20 Liquid`Drone wrote: but then taking one side in this conflict is not stupid, as israel deals significantly more damage to the palestinian civilian population than hamas / palestinians deals to israeli civilians I mean, of course : showing sympathy with civilians on both sides is imperative. but logically, palestinian civilians should get more sympathy, as their sufferings are much larger. i mean for fucks sake, numbers are just in 900 palestinians dead, 277 of them children 3950 injured, this probably includes a shitload of amputated legs / arms, e.g. stuff that leaves people enraged for the rest of their lives.. how many israelis died from the rockets launched by hamas prior to this..?

But the rockets attacks are not the only attacks by Hamas, a few years ago when they were able to cross the border they blew themselves up in busses and restaurents. And if Hamas had real bombs they would kill as many civilians as possible, it is not because they are trying to spare civilian Israelis they are using inefficiant rockets, it is because that is all they have got

that doesn't really go against what I said though.. I'm not sympathesizing with hamas, but palestinian civilians. they suffer more than israeli civilians, regardless of what the reason is.

On January 12 2009 08:23 Liquid`Drone wrote: that doesn't really go against what I said though.. I'm not sympathesizing with hamas, but palestinian civilians. they suffer more than israeli civilians, regardless of what the reason is.

Yes but a big part of the reason why they suffer like this now is because they voted for Hamas.....

On January 12 2009 08:27 Zorglub wrote: Show nested quote + On January 12 2009 08:23 Liquid`Drone wrote: that doesn't really go against what I said though.. I'm not sympathesizing with hamas, but palestinian civilians. they suffer more than israeli civilians, regardless of what the reason is. Yes but a big part of the reason why they suffer like this now is because they voted for Hamas.....

Uhm, yeah, but then again Israely voted for Ariel Sharon.. A massmurderer who said things like "palestinians hasnt suffered enough"
So voting out of pure rage seems to be for both parts :o
The most palestinian-friendly ever won the election for Israel got shot by Israely.

At least the palestinian president is trying to be very co-operative with USA / Israel, thou sadly he has no real power the way this situation is today.

On January 11 2009 23:36 ikc5 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 11 2009 21:19 VanDerMeyde wrote: lol i havent said a word about Hamas yet. But its funny how pro-israely never EVER comment my earlier post about all the FN-resolutions that Israel ignore Yeah totally, makes complete sense to discuss Israeli-Palestinian conflict without commenting on Hamas.

wat

Yes there are wackos on both sides, ban religion world wide

zorglub, how about those 277 children who have died since the attacks? they aren't allowed to vote..
further, its a very slippery slope you engage on.. should we not pity american victims of 9/11 because they voted for george bush? (although 9/11 was before usa started the attacks on Iraq, say, hypothetically 9/11 had not happened, usa had attacked iraq and then 9/11 happened, should we not pity american civilians who died? )
smartbombs or not, the damage they deal is quite random - whether the civilian who dies voted for hamas or not is not known..

You know what Mister BaaL ? ..

you are right , im an idiot , clueless and israel is all terrorist and we're targeting as many schools as we can , we love to kill children.

you can proceed now to banning kid.

im done with this stupid thread there's no sense talking about this in a poker forum anyway

Well drone Bush was not on every terrorist list in the world before they voted for him, that is a little different. I am not saying we should not pity civilians at all of course most of them are not guilty of anything, but when you vote for a terrorist organisation who does not recognize Israel as a state and who want to eliminate all jews from the region you dont vote for peace and then you must expect trouble of some sort

On January 12 2009 08:57 Kingsane wrote: You know what Mister BaaL ? .. you are right , im an idiot , clueless and israel is all terrorist and we're targeting as many schools as we can , we love to kill children. you can proceed now to banning kid. im done with this stupid thread there's no sense talking about this in a poker forum anyway

No Kingsane, I know A LOT of civil Israely just wants peace - and if they could they would take care of civilian palestines as well. I seen this myself and I also know that in parts of Israel, civilian palestines / civilian israely lives side by side without any problem.

ONE THING I want to discuss. Everyone says Hamas is terrorists, and Israely army is not terrorists. Ok fair enough, but shouldn't we then expect Israely army to be more humanitary than Hamas ? Right now Israely army is killing 100x more civilian palestines than other way around and hurting 1000's more. They build apartheid walls, occupy land illegal, illegal settlers on land they dont own, blokkade that makes most civilian palestines in Gaza strip suffer even before this "war". Torture in Israely prisons, legally in Israely law! Bomb like one of the most populated areas in the world and claims Hamas uses "human shields" hmz.

I have a problem with NOT calling Israely army / politicians for terrorists the way they uses this conflict to make more civilian palestines suffer.

While everyone talks about "Hamas vs Israel" and "Israel a have right to defend itself" and "both parts must calm down", Israel is stealing more and more land they dont own and its fucking sad to me that they pretty much guarantee it can never be peace. Not for israely civilians nor for palestinian civilians.

frankly, based on the dictionary.com definition of terrorism, I would believe israel itself would have to agree that they are guilty of it :
"the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes." this is exactly what israel is doing.
(ok, granted, there are other definitions as well, but this was the first one listed. )

According to that definition every police force in the world is guilty of terrorism.

Vandermeyde ok , finally someone who wants to willing to discuss and listen
and ill be happy to try and explain it to you.

"ONE THING I want to discuss. Everyone says Hamas is terrorists, and Israely army is not terrorists. Ok fair enough, but shouldn't we then expect Israely army to be more humanitary than Hamas ? Right now Israely army is killing 100x more civilian palestines than other way around and hurting 1000's more"

Hamas is a terrorist and guierilla warfare unit , it's not an army by any kind of means.
few things u probably didnt know :
In Gaza right now there are OVER a million souls. these people live in such extreme condition , u dont even have the slightest of idea , they live like bugs there ( im speaking about the density per meter ) that's why every bomb kill's children unfourtontly , its not planned to , of course. actually in alot of the cases we alert the hamas exactly where we going to strike in order for them to evacute , our main object is to destroy their terror facilities, our missles are way more advanced and its simple 1+1 = 2 , of course we kill more of their civilians , how can we not ?

"Torture in Israely prisons, legally in Israely law! Bomb like one of the most populated areas in the world and claims Hamas uses "human shields" hmz."

Did you hear about Gilad Shalit ? search that name in google and read a little
just for you to comprehend , where was a neogociation that place not long ago about retriving that poor solider in exchange of 1,000 palestinians that commited murders/etc . 1 for 1000 , can u realize ? that 1,000 probably killed.. i dunno how many, "torture in israeli prison " where are you getting this information from ? are you an officer in ZAHAL ? have u been a palestinian captive ever ?

the main diffrence between the two approachs is We charish the living and they charich the Dead , it is "known" that if ab arab man commits suacide ina public jewish place he will go to heaven and have 74 virgins.

did you know that we provide food / electiricty / medical care for gaza ?
they dont even have hostpitles there , did you know WE take care of many of their wounded? how do u think a doctor feels when he save the life of a hamas member who maybe killed his cousin 3 years ago ?

On January 12 2009 09:37 DustySwedeDude wrote: According to that definition every police force in the world is guilty of terrorism.

and outside scandinavia, they actually are.

so whats your point?

It is amazing the amount of hatred in this thread, I think so much of this is fueled by racism on both sides.

What I do not understand is the seemingly universal anti-semitism in the world, can someone help explain this to me?

In my opinion both sides are extremely wrong, with hamas carrying out way worse crimes against humanity.

It comes down to europe fuckin.g up the undeveloped world basically, from south america to africa to asia there is no part europe hasnt plunged into poverty and violence through their actions. (any dominant power in history is basically guilty of this in one way or another, but thats tangential)
We have no solution at this point in time to undo the damage of drawing arbitrary borders and the fact that we have no good way of figuring out land rights.

[B]On January 12 2009 09:43 Kingsane wrote In Gaza right now there are OVER a million souls. these people live in such extreme condition , u dont even have the slightest of idea , they live like bugs there ( im speaking about the density per meter ) that's why every bomb kill's children unfourtontly , its not planned to , of course. actually in alot of the cases we alert the hamas exactly where we going to strike in order for them to evacute , our main object is to destroy their terror facilities, our missles are way more advanced and its simple 1+1 = 2 , of course we kill more of their civilians , how can we not ?

solution: restore 1967 borders=> population density lowers => bomb em with less civilian casualties