Zorglub, I agree with you that extremists, either they believe in Islam, Christianity or Zionism is very very dangerous. I kinda dont want to get too much into religion because I personally believe ALL religions are bullshit. I dont believe religion in itself is the problem with Middle-east, even thou there are 2-3 religions bashing together. (Remember that palestines is not only muslims/islamists but also christianity and even jews!)
That the Coran contains a lot of bullshit and could be dangerous if readed LITTERARILY doesnt suprise me. So does the bible ("Jews are gods selected people" f.example). Some religious guy told me today that the point is how you read it and how you implement it in your daily life.
I dont really want to get into religion debate because:
- I dont want to hurt people that live peacefully with their religious believes
- Its not that important for this debate as you think
- Israels behavior and bad decisions is what creates this growing hatred, not Islam as religion
On January 15 2009 05:16 Baal wrote:
How many people so far have killed themselves as a jihad or fatwa?
How many muslims are in this world?
thank you.
I dont know, but intent to do harm is just as bad as doing it
Thats is why you get punished for planning a murder even if you never got the chance to commit it
approx 1.1 - 1.2 billion
you are welcome
Intent to do harm is not nearly as bad as actually doing it. Conspiracy to commit murder is much less of a severe crime in terms of punishment than attempted murder, which is less than murder itself.
People who are afraid this will lead to WW3 etc, or the West needs to pay more attention to radical Islam: lol. Islam / the middle east are small players. They can be knocked over, owned, trampled upon with little effort by the West. That they survive in their current state is at the pleasure of those with more advanced armies and weapons.
Be afraid of Chinese/Pakistani/Indian/Russian nuclear warheads. Be afraid of a rapidly modernizing China. Be afraid of those who can really hurt you, not the ones who talk the loudest. The status-quo of nuclear mutually assured destruction which prevents conventional wars between nuclear-armed and advanced powers won't last forever, and when it is no longer there to protect you you aren't going to be afraid of some guy in a mosque who can be taken out by a smart bomb or a country with half a century old tanks, you'll be afraid of the guys with a large population, highly trained and easily mobilized armies and advanced technology. The ones who you can't push a button and have killed, the ones who you you aren't sure you can kill even if you go all out.
On January 15 2009 05:16 Baal wrote:
How many people so far have killed themselves as a jihad or fatwa?
How many muslims are in this world?
thank you.
I dont know, but intent to do harm is just as bad as doing it
Thats is why you get punished for planning a murder even if you never got the chance to commit it
approx 1.1 - 1.2 billion
you are welcome
Intent to do harm is not nearly as bad as actually doing it. Conspiracy to commit murder is much less of a severe crime in terms of punishment than attempted murder, which is less than murder itself.
Yes that is the definition of the law, but in my opinion they are the same. If the only reason they did not hurt you yet is because they are not strong enough yet to do it without losing, but they will do it as soon as they become strong enough I dont see why it should be less severe at all
On January 15 2009 14:14 bigbb33 wrote:
People who are afraid this will lead to WW3 etc, or the West needs to pay more attention to radical Islam: lol. Islam / the middle east are small players. They can be knocked over, owned, trampled upon with little effort by the West. That they survive in their current state is at the pleasure of those with more advanced armies and weapons.
Be afraid of Chinese/Pakistani/Indian/Russian nuclear warheads. Be afraid of a rapidly modernizing China. Be afraid of those who can really hurt you, not the ones who talk the loudest. The status-quo of nuclear mutually assured destruction which prevents conventional wars between nuclear-armed and advanced powers won't last forever, and when it is no longer there to protect you you aren't going to be afraid of some guy in a mosque who can be taken out by a smart bomb or a country with half a century old tanks, you'll be afraid of the guys with a large population, highly trained and easily mobilized armies and advanced technology. The ones who you can't push a button and have killed, the ones who you you aren't sure you can kill even if you go all out.
Muslims are not a country, they are making up 5-20% of the population in almost every european country and they are increasing in numbers every day. Population forecasts in my country predict that in 30 to 40 years there will be more muslims here than "original" danes, same goes for a lot of other european countries. "Muhammed" is the most popular baby's name in London right now. Analysts predicts a muslim majority in Russia within 30 years as well.
Current trends show that Europe will have a Muslim majority by the end of the 21st century. Of course most of them are peaceful and not radical at all but will more muslims not also mean more radical muslims and what side do the moderates choose if one day the radical muslims force them to pick sides? What do you do when the majority of your country wants sharia law and wants to end democracy?
If you were originally from another country, eventually some day you or your children will feel like a citizen of your new country and be loyal to it. If you are a muslim, religion goes above nationality and everything else, you will never be more loyal to your country than your religion because Islam is the most important thing on earth, muslims should always stick together above everything and if you dont comply and agree you are not a muslim and will not go to heaven, that is what the quran says.
Very recently french muslim soldiers refused to go to afghanistan and fight, because it was against their religion to fight other muslims
Even if it turns out good, if european muslims can make a european version of Islam and only follow that, we are facing massive changes soon
Speaking about nukes, the countries that have nukes now seem somewhat reasonable, up until now at least, and they know it will probably be the end of the world if they use them. What happens when Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Somalia or other less reasonable countries get them? and they will sooner or later, do you think all these guys are reasonable and would never use them or is it likely that at least some of them are wackoes and will use them because of religious profecies or otherwise motivated hatred?
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
Last edit: 15/01/2009 18:58
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seatown12 United States. Jan 15 2009 19:13. Posts 1193
On January 15 2009 12:03 Zorglub wrote:
I know, and its only a small percentage of muslims who are radical, but this religion has far more radicals than other religions and it is the fastest growing religion too, growing more than the population on earth
I don't think the current high proportion of radicals is due to qualities inherent to Islam I think it has to do with other socioeconomic and geopolitical factors. In this way VanDerMeyde is partially right because religion in this case is just an aspect of cultural heritage which is up the root cause of this conflict. You argue that Muslims will not be loyal to their national identity and this is a problem, but personally I would argue that nationalism is more likely to lead to a WW3 situation than religion, just as it led to the previous two. In the grand scheme religion is no more important than any of the other ridiculous reasons people choose as an excuse to hate one another.
Anyway thanks to everyone who was able to share their thoughts on this discussion without descending into personal attacks.
On January 15 2009 05:16 Baal wrote:
How many people so far have killed themselves as a jihad or fatwa?
How many muslims are in this world?
thank you.
I dont know, but intent to do harm is just as bad as doing it
Thats is why you get punished for planning a murder even if you never got the chance to commit it
approx 1.1 - 1.2 billion
you are welcome
First of all, no its not, attempt of murder is not punished as actual murder for obvious reasons.
Also saying "kill fags" is not like actually doing it, otherwise 99% of population would be in death row -_-
why do you drag this discussion to this retardation level, i mean it wouldnt take you more than 5 seconds to realize what i just posted but you did anyway... sigh.
On January 15 2009 12:03 Zorglub wrote:
I know, and its only a small percentage of muslims who are radical, but this religion has far more radicals than other religions and it is the fastest growing religion too, growing more than the population on earth
I don't think the current high proportion of radicals is due to qualities inherent to Islam I think it has to do with other socioeconomic and geopolitical factors. In this way VanDerMeyde is partially right because religion in this case is just an aspect of cultural heritage which is up the root cause of this conflict. You argue that Muslims will not be loyal to their national identity and this is a problem, but personally I would argue that nationalism is more likely to lead to a WW3 situation than religion, just as it led to the previous two. In the grand scheme religion is no more important than any of the other ridiculous reasons people choose as an excuse to hate one another.
Anyway thanks to everyone who was able to share their thoughts on this discussion without descending into personal attacks.
how on earth did we disagree so strongly before, i agree with almost anything u have said lately, we probably polarized our views and got into a stubburn discussion.
The thing about "religions" is that its not a religion anymore, its about their race.
And race does start world wars, religion is the flag they wave, however they fight for racial matters.
On January 15 2009 12:03 Zorglub wrote:
I know, and its only a small percentage of muslims who are radical, but this religion has far more radicals than other religions and it is the fastest growing religion too, growing more than the population on earth
I don't think the current high proportion of radicals is due to qualities inherent to Islam I think it has to do with other socioeconomic and geopolitical factors. In this way VanDerMeyde is partially right because religion in this case is just an aspect of cultural heritage which is up the root cause of this conflict. You argue that Muslims will not be loyal to their national identity and this is a problem, but personally I would argue that nationalism is more likely to lead to a WW3 situation than religion, just as it led to the previous two. In the grand scheme religion is no more important than any of the other ridiculous reasons people choose as an excuse to hate one another.
Anyway thanks to everyone who was able to share their thoughts on this discussion without descending into personal attacks.
I do agree that nationalism is a great concern too, but if the violence and high proportion of radicals is not inherent to Islam but a matter of socioeconomic and geopolitical factors please answer why the stuff below is happening in Denmark right now and in many other european countries as well. We never mistreated these guys, we have no apartheid, we took them in to our country and gave them everything they need for free, we gave them citizenship, social security, free education, free religion, mosques, jobs and exactly the same rights that we have.
Crimes in Denmark have been skyrocketing for the last 30 years with an overall increase of 400%, specially violent crimes, violence against authorities, stabbings and rape. We have several muslim neighbourhoods where firefighters and ambulances can not go without a massive backup from police because people are attacking them and small children are throwing stones at them. A muslim in Denmark commits on average 180% more crimes than the average dane and the crimes are of a more violent nature.
Here are some european stats:
France: 12% muslims, 60-70% muslims in jails
Denmark: 7% muslims, 20% muslims in jails
Great Britain: 3% muslims, 11% in jails
Netherlands: 5.5% muslims, 20% in jails
Belgium: 2% muslims (Marokkan and Turkish), 16 % in jails
Spain: 70% muslims in jails
Norway: 30% muslims in jails
In USA they are also overrepresented in jails
Here is a recent Gaza protest in Denmark, "down down USA, Israel, Denmark and democracy" and sieg heil:
Here is another recent Gaza protest in Denmark, it is in danish but they talk about that is time for all muslims to Jihad and they talk about how they want a Khalifat in Denmark, you will understand the chanting:
Here is their danish website about how they want to make Denmark a Khalifat, end democracy and make sharia our law: http://www.khilafah.dk/
Ohh and here is the israeli demonstration:
Why is this happening with this so called religion of peace, I dont see it from any other group of people, what did all these countries do wrong?
Here is a recent funny story about the danish governtment and mentality: a few weeks ago our warship "absalon" on the coast of somalia "helped" a dutch ship that was attacked by pirates, the pirates boat was set on fire by the dutch and the pirates were swimming in the sea. The danish warship came and picked them up, gave them food and our tough marines cut out lightly dressed ladies from the magazines the pirates could read so they would not be offended. Last time they caught some somali pirates red handed they ended up sailing them to a somali beach and letting them go.
Same shit is happening inside the country, these guys are laughing in our face. If you are under 15 you can not go to jail at all, if you commit a serious crime you get put in an institution with leather furniture, playstation 3, meals cooked, internet and computers for all, billiards, pocket money, lots of friends, you can leave it for some weekends and you get bunch of social workers taking care of you and trying to convince you that beeing a criminal is bad. In fact most criminals under 20 get treated like this here.
Even our jails have muslim priests, internet access etc, big rooms and all sorts of entertainment. No wonder they are laughing at us when they would get 100 whiplashes and placed in a shithole in their own country or their hands or feet cut off. We are just too soft and they use it against us, we are not used to that kind of mentality at all.
And Baal I already gave my opinion about Intent in a recent post and your analogy is rediculous at best but I have had it with you now, you are exactly one of those Ted talked about who are descending into personal attacks in every post so im going to ignore you from now on, Im not going to waste any more time on your blatant stupidity!
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
Last edit: 16/01/2009 04:29
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F4Zi United Kingdom. Jan 16 2009 05:20. Posts 3462
so we are able to name every israeli soldier that has died in this single conflict... yet can anyone make a list of the names of every palestinian that has died... no
why is the life of an israeli more valuable than the life of a palestinian.. this is how it comes across
the palestinians are being treated like dogs... locked up in gaza.. borders closed.. they are just waiting to be massacred and slaughtered
if you think of it logically...... a whole israeli army against people who are isolated.. who already live in rubble.. who rely on food donations etc... who already live in refugee camps.... who do you think is gonna win....
how would you react if you were a palestinian.. when you feel the whole world is against you and no one wants to help... how about we try to put ourselves in the boots of palestinians and express how we would feel....
My girlfriend started blowing me and then she stopped, I went on tilt and donkey punched her.
Omfg american politicians pisses me off so extremly hard. "Israel has a right to defend itself" lol. Americans have NO CLUE AT ALL whats really going on in middle east... fucking sad
On January 16 2009 04:20 F4Zi wrote:
so we are able to name every israeli soldier that has died in this single conflict... yet can anyone make a list of the names of every palestinian that has died... no
why is the life of an israeli more valuable than the life of a palestinian.. this is how it comes across
the palestinians are being treated like dogs... locked up in gaza.. borders closed.. they are just waiting to be massacred and slaughtered
if you think of it logically...... a whole israeli army against people who are isolated.. who already live in rubble.. who rely on food donations etc... who already live in refugee camps.... who do you think is gonna win....
how would you react if you were a palestinian.. when you feel the whole world is against you and no one wants to help... how about we try to put ourselves in the boots of palestinians and express how we would feel....
I dont know about UK media but I never heard a single name of anyone killed, neither Israeli or palestinian apart from the Hamas leader and media here are bombarding us every day with how horrific the Israelis are, and some of them are but its not black and white. Yes its not fair, yes I would be pissed if i lived there. Like I said before, radical jews are no better in my book than radical muslims, they are both maniacs.
But F4Zi you did not comment on anything else, why are muslims more radical and more violent in all the other countries that gave them shelter and helped them out? If it is not because of Islam, what is it then?
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
- 20% of the palestine people is christian (unless they have all been killed by now)
- This conflict is about the occupant and people beeing occupied. They are not beeing occupied because of Islam
- We already debated this subject 200 times, why do you keep ignoring everything about Israels apartheid ?
- Most other religions have blood on their hands as well (The crusades etc)
On January 16 2009 12:37 VanDerMeyde wrote:
Zorglub zorglub zorglub....
- 20% of the palestine people is christian (unless they have all been killed by now)
- This conflict is about the occupant and people beeing occupied. They are not beeing occupied because of Islam
- We already debated this subject 200 times, why do you keep ignoring everything about Israels apartheid ?
- Most other religions have blood on their hands as well (The crusades etc)
Now, what do you think about Israels Apartheid ?
- Yes when did those 20% blow themselves up and kill innocent civilians?
- Thats is your claim I do not agree on this as should be obvious by now
- I do not ignore Israels apartheid, I commented on it several times, why do you keep ignoring everything else I wrote in this thread?
- That others did it too is not a valid excuse for anything and the crusades were houndreds of years ago, the Islam crusade is happening right now
I think Israels apartheid is unfair, unjust and it is probably making even more radical muslims every day, but I also think they will have a hard time completely removing it right now like opening up borders completely and such because they would get attacked again by religious maniacs and have their civilians killed again. Now, what do you think about everything else I wrote in this topic like muslim violence in europe for example?
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
Parker417 United States. Jan 16 2009 15:39. Posts 331
Listen up if you shoot rockets into Israel and commit suicide bombing attacks preach anti Jew/western culture bullshit to children in schools and create a new generation of hate in youth of Muslims this is like throwing a stone into the ocean. Sure Israel breads hate toward the Muslims because they have experience suicide attacks and rocket fire because of past actions. The legitimacy of the state of Israel is another debate for another thread but blaming Israel for its actions is kind of silly. Sure the tolerance Israel has for attacks and kidnapping towards its citizens isnt high. They will invade you if you screw with them and you know what... more power to them. They are a country surrounded by nations that preach hate towards them. I think that they have a legitimate right to attack any nation that attacks them. Sure Israel is killing civilians but when Hamas Riggs schools with explosives and launches mortar attacks from school yards and hospitals....... that is sabotage to the whole people of Palestine.
This whole situation is a very sad one but peace in the middle east is unachievable and war is the only way to stop this madness. Diplomacy does not exist. I do not support either Israel or the Muslims in Gaza but now a days the youth watch all of these videos about Jews being BAD and how they control the WORLD and they are monsters. The world isnt for the flower children so stop arguing over something that cant or will not be solved without bloodshed.
Waiting for Baal to call me an idiot but in reality my post is QFT
1
Parker417 United States. Jan 16 2009 15:44. Posts 331
On January 16 2009 12:37 VanDerMeyde wrote:
Zorglub zorglub zorglub....
- 20% of the palestine people is christian (unless they have all been killed by now)
- This conflict is about the occupant and people beeing occupied. They are not beeing occupied because of Islam
- We already debated this subject 200 times, why do you keep ignoring everything about Israels apartheid ?
- Most other religions have blood on their hands as well (The crusades etc)
Now, what do you think about Israels Apartheid ?
- Yes when did those 20% blow themselves up and kill innocent civilians?
- Thats is your claim I do not agree on this as should be obvious by now
- I do not ignore Israels apartheid, I commented on it several times, why do you keep ignoring everything else I wrote in this thread?
- That others did it too is not a valid excuse for anything and the crusades were houndreds of years ago, the Islam crusade is happening right now
I think Israels apartheid is unfair, unjust and it is probably making even more radical muslims every day, but I also think they will have a hard time completely removing it right now like opening up borders completely and such because they would get attacked again by religious maniacs and have their civilians killed again. Now, what do you think about everything else I wrote in this topic like muslim violence in europe for example?
lol the crusades weren't a religious war. The crusades ended up being a series of wars because the Muslims said Fuck you Jerusalem is ours and you cant come. The crusaders were there to protect religious pilgrims. They weren't there to start a fight. Good god stop watching history channel about memorible battles and look at under lying themes.
On January 16 2009 14:39 Parker417 wrote:
Listen up if you shoot rockets into Israel and commit suicide bombing attacks preach anti Jew/western culture bullshit to children in schools and create a new generation of hate in youth of Muslims this is like throwing a stone into the ocean. Sure Israel breads hate toward the Muslims because they have experience suicide attacks and rocket fire because of past actions. The legitimacy of the state of Israel is another debate for another thread but blaming Israel for its actions is kind of silly. Sure the tolerance Israel has for attacks and kidnapping towards its citizens isnt high. They will invade you if you screw with them and you know what... more power to them. They are a country surrounded by nations that preach hate towards them. I think that they have a legitimate right to attack any nation that attacks them. Sure Israel is killing civilians but when Hamas Riggs schools with explosives and launches mortar attacks from school yards and hospitals....... that is sabotage to the whole people of Palestine.
This whole situation is a very sad one but peace in the middle east is unachievable and war is the only way to stop this madness. Diplomacy does not exist. I do not support either Israel or the Muslims in Gaza but now a days the youth watch all of these videos about Jews being BAD and how they control the WORLD and they are monsters. The world isnt for the flower children so stop arguing over something that cant or will not be solved without bloodshed.
Waiting for Baal to call me an idiot but in reality my post is QFT
You post is not QFT, its spew
- Historyless, read Nelson Mandela "Enemies have to speak together to get peace"
- Your observation about "Israel defending itself" shows you dont know any basic facts about the conflict. Israel is OCCUPYING ILLEGALLY. Its a difference between occupying and defending itself behind your own borders from 1967. Read about UN-resolution 242 "land conquer by war", this is exactly whats happened here. Israels land outside 1967 borders is illegally, even Ariel Sharon admits this.
- If you are "neutral" in a conflict where there is one part occupying and one part beeing occupied, you are always in favour of the occupying part.
:D
Last edit: 16/01/2009 15:50
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Parker417 United States. Jan 16 2009 16:15. Posts 331
I agree with that you have written and yes they are illegally occupied but like i said its a struggle that predates 1967. Occupied or not the way to solve a problem isnt to shoot rockets and suicide bomb a countries that has nukes, air force, and overall military dominance. I mean if your argument for them is that its a illegal occupation people might be more inclined to hear there side if they weren't led by a terrorist organization that promotes terrorist acts.
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