nl50 FR JJ ip

PokerStars Game #23719873443: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2009/01/09 6:40:07 ET
Table 'Benkoela III' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: RuBenPoCoPrO ($52.80 in chips)
Seat 2: marcbb ($22.55 in chips)
Seat 4: camuloz ($50 in chips)
Seat 5: Juanito28 ($30.20 in chips)
Seat 6: coronadivina ($50 in chips)
Seat 7: Witz1708 ($9.25 in chips)
Seat 8: seadragon68 ($10 in chips)
Seat 9: CAT HEAD 81 ($17.70 in chips)
seadragon68: posts small blind $0.25
CAT HEAD 81: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to coronadivina [Jc Jd]
RuBenPoCoPrO: folds
marcbb: calls $0.50
camuloz: raises $2 to $2.50
Juanito28: folds
coronadivina: calls $2.50
Tavarok leaves the table
Witz1708: folds
seadragon68: folds
CAT HEAD 81: folds
marcbb: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [Tc 5s 7h]
marcbb: checks
camuloz: bets $6.50
MKCondor joins the table at seat #3
coronadivina: raises $8.50 to $15
marcbb: folds
camuloz: raises $32.50 to $47.50 and is all-in
coronadivina: folds
Uncalled bet ($32.50) returned to camuloz
camuloz collected $36.40 from pot
camuloz: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $38.25 | Rake $1.85
Board [Tc 5s 7h]
Seat 1: RuBenPoCoPrO folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: marcbb folded on the Flop
Seat 4: camuloz collected ($36.40)
Seat 5: Juanito28 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: coronadivina folded on the Flop
Seat 7: Witz1708 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: seadragon68 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: CAT HEAD 81 (big blind) folded before Flop

well i am glad with my fold here iam almost sure that i am beat here most of the time at nl50. However I would like to here from nl100 nl200 regs how you would play this one. I guess at higher limits people can level me and think i reraise cos i put him on air...

so basically if i 3-bet pf then iam building a pot which i prefer not to do with JJ. I have position so i dont want this.

However if i dont 3-bet pf then i could get in this kind of situations. I think this spot is kind of common and would be nice to discuss about this.

villain is unknown and has goldstar. No reads at all.

So what would you do pf / on flop / other streets?

oooh shit how do i confert the hand?

thnx

Submitted by : 4Kingell

PokerStars Game #23719873443: Holdem No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2009/01/09 6:40:07 ET
Table Benkoela III 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: RuBenPoCoPrO ($52.80 in chips)
Seat 2: marcbb ($22.55 in chips)
Seat 4: camuloz ($50 in chips)
Seat 5: Juanito28 ($30.20 in chips)
Seat 6: coronadivina ($50 in chips)
Seat 7: Witz1708 ($9.25 in chips)
Seat 8: seadragon68 ($10 in chips)
Seat 9: CAT HEAD 81 ($17.70 in chips)
seadragon68: posts small blind $0.25
CAT HEAD 81: posts big blind $0.50

Holecards
Dealt to coronadivina
RuBenPoCoPrO: folds
marcbb: calls $0.50
camuloz: raises $2 to $2.50
Juanito28: folds
coronadivina: calls $2.50
Tavarok leaves the table
Witz1708: folds
seadragon68: folds
CAT HEAD 81: folds
marcbb: calls $2

Flop (Pot : $8.25)

   
marcbb: checks
camuloz: bets $6.50
MKCondor joins the table at seat #3
coronadivina: raises $8.50 to $15
marcbb: folds
camuloz: raises $32.50 to $47.50 and is all-in
coronadivina: folds
Uncalled bet ($32.50) returned to camuloz
camuloz collected $36.40 from pot
camuloz: doesnt show hand

Summary
Total pot $38.25 | Rake $1.85
Board  
Seat 1: RuBenPoCoPrO folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 2: marcbb folded on the Flop
Seat 4: camuloz collected ($36.40)
Seat 5: Juanito28 folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 6: coronadivina folded on the Flop
Seat 7: Witz1708 (button) folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 8: seadragon68 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: CAT HEAD 81 (big blind) folded before Flop

Just cut and paste the history in to Hands on the right and submit. It will give you a hand number. Paste [XHAND=604227X], without the X's in to your post.

I don't play FR but if you don't give any history here on the villain or any of your thoughts you probably won't get any sensible answers.

ok cool thnx! do you have suggestions for this hand as well?

Standard fold to 3bet on flop vs unknown.

3 bet pre???

On January 09 2009 06:32 vlseph wrote: 3 bet pre???

well i dont know at higher limits... JJ is valuable hand and many flops contain scare cards. Its more like if you dont 3-bet pre and get a flop like the one above... people can easily let you muck JJ. On nl50 they dont do that cos they play standard abc poker and are chicken as hell

On January 09 2009 06:41 nouck wrote: Show nested quote + On January 09 2009 06:32 vlseph wrote: 3 bet pre??? well i dont know at higher limits... JJ is valuable hand and many flops contain scare cards. Its more like if you dont 3-bet pre and get a flop like the one above... people can easily let you muck JJ. On nl50 they dont do that cos they play standard abc poker and are chicken as hell

But you have a limper and you are inviting the limper to play. JJ may be a nice hand heads up and PF but the more players the less value. Once you play as above I would be pretty cautious post flop having not hit the set. Your raise is not big enough to scare him, a decent sized raise pretty much commits you - 3betting JJ PF would have been better imo. As I said I don't play FR but I think this would be even more appropriate given relative hand strength in FR Vs 6 max.

well in 6 max would always 3-bet JJ no matter what my pos is (ecl. hard nits). However in FR this one is more difficult.

Also TT fits very well in this situation. Its the kind of hand with intrinsic value pf and its hard to play this hand post flop with facecards on the board. imo the point is that if you are good poker player you can instantly switch in making some kind of fancy bluff with TT or JJ. Sometimes you are forced to do so cos people know you have JJ or TT and can put you of it with even a worse hand...

I wouldn't raise this flop unless I was planning to call a shove....so just call the flop and go from there, or call this shove. I'd probably 3 bet pre also, especially against an unknown and a limper.



Also: "so basically if i 3-bet pf then iam building a pot which i prefer not to do with JJ. I have position so i dont want this." This logic is inconsistent with what you did on the flop....if you don't want to build a pot why are you raising the flop? Have a plan for what you're going to do during a hand. I'd definitely want to kick this up pre though.

hey donkeyluvin

pretty good advice with the fact that iam not consistent with pf and flop actions...

However my logic for raising flop is to protect my hand vs AQ/AK/KQ or just flopped tp etc.

But thinking about it. you are right. I have position! so what am i afraid of

thnx!

Call flop and go from there, but without history you need to give up on a lot of turns if he fires again.

On January 09 2009 08:00 Fox wrote: Call flop and go from there, but without history you need to give up on a lot of turns if he fires again.

thats exactly what i mean. if he is more then competent any he would fire on any facecard again...

camuloz is a nit, I fold to his flop bet, maybe call and fold to any action on turn..

On January 09 2009 08:08 k4ir0s wrote: camuloz is a nit, I fold to his flop bet

good info!

haha cool you are the one that bluffcatched me with your rivered set of deuces

On January 09 2009 08:13 nouck wrote: Show nested quote + On January 09 2009 08:08 k4ir0s wrote: camuloz is a nit, I fold to his flop bet good info! haha cool you are the one that bluffcatched me with your rivered set of deuces

haha xD sorry for the hit and run, the table got bad

oooh well wasnt that quit of a big hit and run

will get it back next time... :D

On January 09 2009 08:03 nouck wrote: Show nested quote + On January 09 2009 08:00 Fox wrote: Call flop and go from there, but without history you need to give up on a lot of turns if he fires again. thats exactly what i mean. if he is more then competent any he would fire on any facecard again...

and if you had a set you could play it the same way. lots of people will check turns. you cannot fold this now.

On January 09 2009 09:19 Fox wrote: Show nested quote + On January 09 2009 08:03 nouck wrote:   On January 09 2009 08:00 Fox wrote: Call flop and go from there, but without history you need to give up on a lot of turns if he fires again. thats exactly what i mean. if he is more then competent any he would fire on any facecard again... and if you had a set you could play it the same way. lots of people will check turns. you cannot fold this now.

thats the trick and thats also what i want to verify with regulars playing at higher stakes then nl50. I follow the same line when i have a set (unless i have some sort of read he has air). However at nl50 they not generally go over the top with this kind of board with only tp or even worse then that. They always have at least QQ+

However i could take this line with overpair (to test the waters); set; draw or totally bs. I can imagine that if i would play at nl200 and then take this line with overpair i would be misunderstood (they will then put me on draw or air). Am I right in this one?

I don't 3bet pf there with JJ not in FR. I would have maybe called the flop cbet to see what happens IP on the turn and decide from there. No need to inflate the pot big with OP unless you are prepared to call a shove. These spots are tough against unknowns because it's harder to range them.

what do you imagine will call you there that youll beat when you repop the flop?, and if youre not willing to stick it in there why would you raise flop? you want to turn hand into bluff?

Standard is to call flop and fold to continued aggression.

Vs a big nit who doesn't cbet AK and such, you can just fold to flop cbet.

On January 09 2009 09:41 nouck wrote: Show nested quote + On January 09 2009 09:19 Fox wrote:   On January 09 2009 08:03 nouck wrote:   On January 09 2009 08:00 Fox wrote: Call flop and go from there, but without history you need to give up on a lot of turns if he fires again. thats exactly what i mean. if he is more then competent any he would fire on any facecard again... and if you had a set you could play it the same way. lots of people will check turns. you cannot fold this now. thats the trick and thats also what i want to verify with regulars playing at higher stakes then nl50. I follow the same line when i have a set (unless i have some sort of read he has air). However at nl50 they not generally go over the top with this kind of board with only tp or even worse then that. They always have at least QQ+ However i could take this line with overpair (to test the waters); set; draw or totally bs. I can imagine that if i would play at nl200 and then take this line with overpair i would be misunderstood (they will then put me on draw or air). Am I right in this one?

Yeah for your flop calling range that includes things like A10s, JJ, QQ, 89s, 64s, set for sure since i doubt he's raising that early with anything that's drawing that board.

At higher stakes players are more willing to fire on turns and rivers so it's difficult to call three streets with marginal hands while at lower limits players shut down on turns SO OFTEN.

--- Nuked ---

what's this i hear about folding this flop in a raised pot? and folding to a turn bet?

FR = heads asplodingg!

btw, raise/folding is the worst possible play. in all likelihood, you could have gotten the same info + a turn card just by calling the flop.

On January 09 2009 14:30 Fox wrote: Show nested quote + On January 09 2009 09:41 nouck wrote:   On January 09 2009 09:19 Fox wrote:   On January 09 2009 08:03 nouck wrote:   On January 09 2009 08:00 Fox wrote: Call flop and go from there, but without history you need to give up on a lot of turns if he fires again. thats exactly what i mean. if he is more then competent any he would fire on any facecard again... and if you had a set you could play it the same way. lots of people will check turns. you cannot fold this now. thats the trick and thats also what i want to verify with regulars playing at higher stakes then nl50. I follow the same line when i have a set (unless i have some sort of read he has air). However at nl50 they not generally go over the top with this kind of board with only tp or even worse then that. They always have at least QQ+ However i could take this line with overpair (to test the waters); set; draw or totally bs. I can imagine that if i would play at nl200 and then take this line with overpair i would be misunderstood (they will then put me on draw or air). Am I right in this one? Yeah for your flop calling range that includes things like A10s, JJ, QQ, 89s, 64s, set for sure since i doubt he's raising that early with anything that's drawing that board. At higher stakes players are more willing to fire on turns and rivers so it's difficult to call three streets with marginal hands while at lower limits players shut down on turns SO OFTEN.

well that is the reason why i started this question. I know i was wrong raising JJ here and kinda blew away the value of my hand. However i think this is only cos we are playing nl50 now. Problem is what you say Fox that at higher limits people are way more aggressive on turn and river streets. I dont want to be calling down all the way with JJ only not knowing how good my hand really is. On nl50 they could c-bet i call and then when they have missed flop and turn they shut down... I think on higher limits this kind of situations could be much harder to play cos of the fact they could fire on turn and river as well. Especially this kind of flop is perfect for second barreling on if the turn is a face card.

Dont understand me wrong here having overpair is always nice :D

your play makes zero sense whatsoever preflop then on flop.