settle an important bet - Page 5

those numbers were totally made up and i never intended them to be remotely accurate, only to illustrate what i meant with an hyperbola


about tanks vs goons i dunno, probably the tanks win cuz goon AI fucking blows and the Tank attack has no animation delay so there are no missed shots and there will be many missed goon shots

mmmmmm this could develop in really nice prop bet thread.

Cant someone just use some hacked map editor or something to make a map closer to OP post (i can't btw)

decent sized map with more cannons in rows, and then use beacons or sth for getting marines in since then you don't have to have them all standing on screen and that will get somewhat around the # of units limitations?

i believe it takes four shots to kill a marine from a cannon because of the armour class, cannons only doing 1/2 damage on "light targets" (could be wrong though)

you are wrong, you would be correct if we played starcraft 1.00 or 1.01, so like, 10 years ago
cannons deal normal damage

is it goons that deal 1/2 damage?

yes

Cannon defense!! Just stack the cannons for an easy win. I still voted for cannons btw even without stack. Because all the marines will die before even getting off a shot.

In the Replay provided the dimensions are 10X3 cannons and 30x10 marines. Giving the marines 3 times more length coverage. In OP its laid out as 100x10 cannons and 250x40 marines giving then only a 2.5:1 ratio advantage in area. therefore the marines going to be more sorrounded by the cannons.

You're right about one thing eri, 300 marines looks insane when you actually see them on a map haha.

that's what i'm thinking about when we talk 10k marines.

Marines easily for one reason that nobody stated

In starcraft, there exist what we call "firelag"
anyone ever played "ultimate canon defense" or some shit like that. when too many canons fire at the same time(over 200 approx), some of them wont shoot because in starcraft there is a maximun of things that can shoot at the same time

and for some reasons, units doesnt all have the same firelag. most recents units shoot first but it also has something to do with the unit type (for example do a test, build 100 scouts, and then, a second player build 98 scouts. if they fight, the 98 will win ez due to firelag cuz more recent unit fire more when there is firelag)
some units, such as dragoons, canons, battlecruisers, etc have very high firelag
but some units like marines have nearly no firelag

in the above scenario, 100 scouts vs 100 scouts, if if you had to choose between 20 marines or 15 goons to help out your scouts, you probably should pick the marines cuz goons will nearly never fire at all.

Btw in the test, subaru probably didnt experience this, because 30 canons is not enough to produce firelag

there would need to be at least 200 canons firing at the same time


The nuke wont change anything, it could kill 200 marines being VERY generous and 200/10000 that doesnt change anything

The only way the canons could win is if the marine are sent very slowly so that they never experience firelag (aka there is never 200 canons firing at the same time because there is never that many marines to be shot) or if canons are all stacked together lol

there would never be 200 cannons firing at the same time because theyre getting attacked where they are thinnest.

do u rly think theyre never gonna be more than 200 shooting?

if for some reason the terrain was made in a way the marines cannot attack the sides, there probably wouldnt be firelag, but pooruser never stated this in his original post?

I've tryed to make a map close enought to the OP statement and i got this results.

1.- I hate pooruser.
2.- Make the map its harder that it seems.
3.- It may seems that in a perfect scenario as said by capaneo and baal 10k marines could easily own 1000 cannons but its not like that in practice, in my test high volume of marines become EXTREMELY dumb, the AI mess everything up and get killed like ducks.
4.- Its imposible to get marines to attack in a straight line, they confuse, stuck and act like goons on stairs.
5.- 3 Rows of cannons are always shotting killing marines very fast as they aproach.
6.- More than 400 or 500 marines at a single time make the map become bugged, u can see the animation of units shotting but they're not making any damage.
7.- In practice 958 marines got killed and only 25 cannons were destroyed mainly because 100 cannons take a very wide portion of the map while 240 marines doesnt.
8.- At least 40% of the marines die without making a single shoot.
8.- I'll try to make a better map later cause yesterday i got tilted and erase all the triggers >_<.

On December 02 2008 11:11 Funktion wrote:

nice one ahahha. cannons are defective tho TT

On December 02 2008 02:15 capaneo wrote: Show nested quote + On December 02 2008 01:11 [vital]Myth wrote: for people who are kinda blindly choosing one side or the other based on intuition...here's the theory. if you send 10 marines vs 1 cannon it is very clear that the marines will win, and a certain % of the marines will survive on average. but if you send 20 marines vs 2 cannons, it is once again very clear that the marines will win, and a certain % of the marines will survive on average. BUT, the % of marines that survive might be lower in this scenario. and as you continue to increase the number of cannons (maintaining the 10:1 marine:cannon ratio), the % of surviving marines can continue to decrease, possibly to the point where the cannons actually win. but the % of surviving marines may also reach a level that stabilizes as you continue to increase the numbers, so that for any arbitrarily large n number of cannons, 10n marines will defeat them. finally, the spatial arrangement of the cannons and marines becomes an issue as the numbers grow large. when the marines are constricted to attack in waves, this can be advantageous to the cannons. or, when the cannons are restricted to have less than 100% of them firing at all times, this can be advantageous for the marines. given the results of the trial runs with 300 vs 30, i would estimate that there's a very low probability that 10k marines won't destroy 1k cannons All this was said before in post #39 in one sentence ----> "This is not a linear problem"

yeah i know but lol if you think people know what that means

Marines ofc

but with nukes cannons may win