25NL QQ Line Check

Hey all

Just curious as to how would other LP'ers play this hand. I thought about flatting and reeval turn, but decided to RR to try define my QQ vs his minRR

Submitted by : LiLZhiMiNG

PokerStars Game #22289984738: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/11/23 8:59:07 ET
Table 'Ilos' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: DonBuchy ($25.45 in chips)
Seat 2: Zappas son ($11.35 in chips)
Seat 3: Hero ($38.35 in chips)
Seat 4: JHL54 ($33.80 in chips)
Seat 5: Bugzig ($27.50 in chips)
Seat 6: phherr1 ($31.80 in chips)
Seat 7: dreve27 ($16.70 in chips)
Seat 8: Fearnol ($26.40 in chips)
Seat 9: Herkloles ($24.60 in chips)
Herkloles: posts small blind $0.10
DonBuchy: posts big blind $0.25

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
Zappas son: folds
Hero : raises $0.75 to $1
JHL54: folds
Bugzig: folds
phherr1: calls $1
dreve27: folds
dreve27 leaves the table
Fearnol: folds
Herkloles: folds
DonBuchy: folds

Flop (Pot : $2.35)

   
Hero : bets $1.75
phherr1: raises $1.75 to $3.50
sed71 joins the table at seat #7
Hero : raises $7.50 to $11
phherr1: raises $7.50 to $18.50
Hero : folds
Uncalled bet ($7.50) returned to phherr1
phherr1 collected $23.15 from pot
phherr1: doesn't show hand

Summary
Total pot $24.35 | Rake $1.20
Board  
Seat 1: DonBuchy (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: Zappas son folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Hero folded on the Flop
Seat 4: JHL54 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Bugzig folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: phherr1 collected ($23.15)
Seat 7: dreve27 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Fearnol (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Herkloles (small blind) folded before Flop

i call his miniraise and see turn. but fold if he bets big.

Flat and call non-K/T/8/d turn;c/f river ; if you plan to flat and fold to a pot sized bet on the turn, your line is better... most likely he has a set or J9 as played... Giving no info on the vill, I can't tell which line is better tho + I don't play FR (if that matters).

lol @ fox and brobebrato
they both have 30$
so you call turn, you have 10$ behind and then you fold if he bet big?
lol

what was your plan after you reraised him?

I think Fox meant to call his initial minraise of $1.75 and then see a turn, and then on turn if he bets big you can easily fold.

On November 23 2008 10:22 ConquistadoR wrote: I think Fox meant to call his initial minraise of $1.75 and then see a turn, and then on turn if he bets big you can easily fold.

yeah maybe
make sense

On November 23 2008 10:00 HeRoS)eNGagE wrote: lol @ fox and brobebrato they both have 30$ so you call turn, you have 10$ behind and then you fold if he bet big? lol what was your plan after you reraised him?

First of all, I said if you're not comfortable calling a turn bet on a brick(even pot sized) better fold flop.

2nd - let's assume vill bets around pot ~9$ - if you call it's 18$ behind ... big difference - it still sucks cuz it's 2/3 of the pot

3rd - no info for the vill - I'm not a fortunecookmaster to know what's the vill playstyle... vs someone i'd deff fold to pot sized bet on the turn even with my weak line...mb I'd fold much more than I think now (to PSB)who knows...(who cares

if you fold turn that mean you call flop
if you call flop you are commited and have to call the turn

you also said
Flat and call non-K/T/8/d turn;c/f river ;


lol

raise more PF?

On November 23 2008 11:42 luddite wrote: raise more PF?

wat

On November 23 2008 11:26 HeRoS)eNGagE wrote: if you fold turn that mean you call flop if you call flop you are commited and have to call the turn

ahah, how come we are commited calling his minr on the flop? R u srs ?I said i'd fold to those turns (but most of them complete his hand ...) if he bets 2/3 pot + - he could still be betting tp but he won't bet so strong most of the times but he'll shut it down most of the times on the river - or he'll make a block bet that we can call - I said c/f river if he keeps representing a big hand ( didn't say that, my bad).

phherr1: raises $7.50 to $18.50
+
Hero : raises $0.75 to $1

So you have like 20$ in the pot(so pot is~ 40)
you have 10 behind

yeah sorry, villian was 17/1.2/2.6...I think flatting the first min re raise and reevaluate turn is probably best line, and then folding to any bet larger than ~$6.50...

On November 23 2008 12:23 HeRoS)eNGagE wrote: phherr1: raises $7.50 to $18.50 + Hero : raises $0.75 to $1 So you have like 20$ in the pot(so pot is~ 40) you have 10 behind

Ha, lol bro :D you didn't get me, I was talking about flatting his 2bet - as played calling ain't an option for sure :D ... it's either fold or shove... because you can't fold the turn.

On November 23 2008 11:42 luddite wrote: raise more PF?

the usual raise is 4BB + 1 more for each limper before you, that's why people recommended you raise more in your thread

don't 3bet flop if you don't want to felt it because when he reshoves draws and you fold he is forcing you into a huge mistake.

u cant 3bet/fold the flop wtf... and anyway u cant ever fold this flop there are so many draws out its impossible

Theres nothing to reevaluate if you call the flop RR, at best you might get a cheaper showdown just check/calling remaining streets instead of 4betting flop, but cmon villain has to have AA/KK/JJ here. Double minRR is always the nuts. I like it played as is.

I flat call his flop minraise and try to see a cheap showdown. If a third diamond hits and he pots turn, I fold. A flop minraise is not nearly as scary as a turn minraise; he may do this with QJ,KJ,AJ. As played though, I do snap fold to his second minraise. I have NEVER seen a double minraise on the flop not be the nuts.

ok I do follow the 4BB+1 for every limper as you can see I am first in the pot, and can someone/spitfire elaborate why spitfire says I can't RR his min RR and fold to his 2nd min RR, I just thought his first minRR could of been anything from a flush draw to a set, and once he minRR me 2nd time it had to be slowplay AA/KK/set

im allin

On November 23 2008 17:12 LiLZhiMiNG wrote: ok I do follow the 4BB+1 for every limper as you can see I am first in the pot, and can someone/spitfire elaborate why spitfire says I can't RR his min RR and fold to his 2nd min RR, I just thought his first minRR could of been anything from a flush draw to a set, and once he minRR me 2nd time it had to be slowplay AA/KK/set

if you reraise him you certainly do it for value and shouldnt fold to another raise.

On November 23 2008 15:25 Night2o1 wrote: Show nested quote + On November 23 2008 11:42 luddite wrote: raise more PF? the usual raise is 4BB + 1 more for each limper before you, that's why people recommended you raise more in your thread

Yeah but don't you think he should raise more since he's UTG+1?

this is infinite wrong, if you call the last raise he makes then you are committed to a hand thats less than 10% to win

On November 23 2008 18:36 SpasticInk wrote: Show nested quote + On November 23 2008 17:12 LiLZhiMiNG wrote: ok I do follow the 4BB+1 for every limper as you can see I am first in the pot, and can someone/spitfire elaborate why spitfire says I can't RR his min RR and fold to his 2nd min RR, I just thought his first minRR could of been anything from a flush draw to a set, and once he minRR me 2nd time it had to be slowplay AA/KK/set if you reraise him you certainly do it for value and shouldnt fold to another raise.

yeah he is 2b and 4betting with a draw - ok spew masters - overall we gotta give 18.5 for 43.85$ - which is like ~2,4 - 1 - so we need to be good at least 30% of the time to be ok to stack off - which I Dont believe..anyway Neilly said it...

On November 23 2008 15:50 Spitfiree wrote: u cant 3bet/fold the flop wtf... and anyway u cant ever fold this flop there are so many draws out its impossible

we know...for u : ) - even if he's doing min 2b and 4b with a draw...(I guess if u believe if very very many much it will happen) he has outs to crush us - let's say 30% of his range are draws (lolol ok) and he will draw out let's say 35% of those 30% = u r fucked...but I guess shoving and saying LOLOL SO MANY DRAWS CANT FOLD is eZ - then I blame variance .

On November 23 2008 18:58 luddite wrote: Show nested quote + On November 23 2008 15:25 Night2o1 wrote:   On November 23 2008 11:42 luddite wrote: raise more PF? the usual raise is 4BB + 1 more for each limper before you, that's why people recommended you raise more in your thread Yeah but don't you think he should raise more since he's UTG+1?

I think its the same

On November 23 2008 18:36 SpasticInk wrote: Show nested quote + On November 23 2008 17:12 LiLZhiMiNG wrote: ok I do follow the 4BB+1 for every limper as you can see I am first in the pot, and can someone/spitfire elaborate why spitfire says I can't RR his min RR and fold to his 2nd min RR, I just thought his first minRR could of been anything from a flush draw to a set, and once he minRR me 2nd time it had to be slowplay AA/KK/set if you reraise him you certainly do it for value and shouldnt fold to another raise.

agreed

On November 23 2008 18:36 SpasticInk wrote: if you reraise him you certainly do it for value and shouldnt fold to another raise.

What if you know you're beat? Things change, one minute youre value betting the next you realize it was a mistake. Unless the odds are good enough for us to "pay to see", just seems like a waste of money to continue with the hand at this point.

On November 23 2008 10:22 ConquistadoR wrote: I think Fox meant to call his initial minraise of $1.75 and then see a turn, and then on turn if he bets big you can easily fold.

this.

On November 25 2008 11:00 hawking wrote: Show nested quote + On November 23 2008 18:36 SpasticInk wrote: if you reraise him you certainly do it for value and shouldnt fold to another raise. What if you know you're beat? Things change, one minute youre value betting the next you realize it was a mistake. Unless the odds are good enough for us to "pay to see", just seems like a waste of money to continue with the hand at this point.

well then you should definitely take minute to go through with your thought process in the first place. if you intend to fold to another raise its far better to call instead.

if you realize it was a mistake of course you should fold then, but that's the thing. you clearly should have in mind what you intend to do with your QQ and how to react to diffrent responses to this when 3-betting flops like this. if you fold to the 4-bet you kind of made your QQ to a bluff instead of trying to show it down more cheaply.

yeah only 3bet/commit if calling the rest of it off > folding, which means you think you're not ALWAYS crushed here when villain shoves, because his range could include draws and worse made hands as well.

reraise/fold is inconsistent/spewy.

On November 25 2008 13:28 SpasticInk wrote: you clearly should have in mind what you intend to do with your QQ and how to react to diffrent responses to this when 3-betting flops like this. if you fold to the 4-bet you kind of made your QQ to a bluff instead of trying to show it down more cheaply.

one thing that i found to be helpful is to take some time to consider the possible moves that villain might make in response to my present decision and to take that a step further to decide what I'm going to do in response to THEIR responses. otherwise, i feel like i just robotically play the strength of my hand.

yea, now that I think about it that all makes sense.

Your holding a good hand but not great in this spot. I call first min raise, see the turn....lead again to turn no matter the card specialy if its a diamond and if he shoves or raises fold but i think you will have better idea of his strenght this way.

i feel like a wave of stupid has hit me from reading some of the responses in this thread

In this spot when you are in EP with overpair and he is reraising this kind of drawy boards, chances are huge for him having a set. However this is true for regs. The only problem i see is the minraise of him. If he has flopped a set he had to reraise you more to let you pay more for your possible drawy hand yourself. Furthermore he had to build the pot because a diamond or straight fullfilling turn would kill the action for him.

So, putting him on the right hand depents on his playing style and besides that even if he has a draw and you would just flat his flop raise (what you had to do instead of raising) you have to know what you are going to do on every turn card. Once again this is player dependant and if a brick falls it could be he will fire again. But hell then you lost a small pot, bigdeal... If a brick falls and you dont trust him because he is always aggro on draws then you check turn, let him bet and then you reraise to protect hand/value.

On November 25 2008 23:26 sabulous wrote: Your holding a good hand but not great in this spot. I call first min raise, see the turn....lead again to turn no matter the card specialy if its a diamond and if he shoves or raises fold but i think you will have better idea of his strenght this way.

WTF are you serious?

If you bet out a diamond do you even now what you are repping then...?