200NL: Basic situation I'm unsure about...

The player leading seems taggish over a small sample, 21/18, the first limper is a 25/8 and the overlimper is a 20/17, all over small samples. I know this hands kind of basic but I'm just wondering what line we should be taking on the flop, is calling standard? Does anyone consider folding right now?

Submitted by : RainMan

***** Hand History for Game 7548403897 *****
$200.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, November 18, 09:27:07 ET 2008
Table Table 126396 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Seat 1: Mr_Downswing ( $262.65 USD )
Seat 3: phd101 ( $94.68 USD )
Seat 4: PLSLOVEME ( $355.60 USD )
Seat 5: Weizinho1 ( $218.23 USD )
Seat 6: PARTY3AH ( $219.95 USD )
Seat 2: Hero ( $203.00 USD )
Mr_Downswing posts small blind [$1.00 USD].
Hero posts big blind [$2.00 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
phd101 calls [$2.00 USD]
PLSLOVEME folds
Weizinho1 calls [$2.00 USD]
PARTY3AH folds
Mr_Downswing calls [$1.00 USD]
Hero checks

Flop (Pot : $8.00)

   
Mr_Downswing bets [$7.00 USD]

pump it up to 20$.

On November 19 2008 02:43 lostaccount wrote: pump it up to 20$.

and if you would get more action on it, I would pitch it

Consider this : u dont know whether u beat Mr_Downswing, there are 2 players behind, and lot of turn cards forces u to fold. Calling here is basic mistake, fold is much better. Raising could be better than calling, but it is marginal at best (since Mr_Downswing is showing a LOT of strenght when he bets pot int 3 players).

edit : Raising is basically turning your so so hand into bluff....very bad bluff.

I dont think it is directly a bluff.
Raising is better than folding, because of the board texture (you dont want drawers to see the turn cheap)

I think by raising you define your hand against Mr_Downswing. I think also that the villain could bet with just s sd or a pair + sd.
If Mr_Downswing 4 bets, I would definitely fold it. If he calls I would go for pot control on the turn, which is dependent of the turn card.

Taggish player is probably not folding most of his donking range 4way, so I dont really see a profit in trying to bluff him, especially with 2 other players behind, that for itself makes it a pretty easy fold imo, you just have the worst position and a hand that cant stand much heat.

On November 19 2008 04:51 Edjon wrote: I dont think it is directly a bluff. Raising is better than folding, because of the board texture (you dont want drawers to see the turn cheap) I think by raising you define your hand against Mr_Downswing. I think also that the villain could bet with just s sd or a pair + sd. If Mr_Downswing 4 bets, I would definitely fold it. If he calls I would go for pot control on the turn, which is dependent of the turn card.

If you plan to fold to a 3bet (not 4bet, ;learn to count) your 2b is a bluff

so what you are saying is that whenever you 2 bet or 3 bet and fold to a 3 bet (or 4 bet) it is a bluff...
so when I 3 bet qq pf, but fold to a 4 bet shove I was bluffing..

extremely rarely a bluff but prob not gonna continue firing without a decent hand so just call once

yeah... raising here is not a value raise

a raise here would be pretty fucking bad imo. you're trying to raise your hand for value against a range that probably has you crushed and if not has sick equity vs your hand anyway.

prob do what myth suggested and flat once and reeval and prob fold to further big action.

reason why i raise here is to isolate, dont want another player behind me to call.

On November 19 2008 20:07 lostaccount wrote: reason why i raise here is to isolate, dont want another player behind me to call.

Pretty sure if somebody behind me calls I likely have at least 70% equity vs them.

On November 20 2008 02:22 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote: Show nested quote + On November 19 2008 20:07 lostaccount wrote: reason why i raise here is to isolate, dont want another player behind me to call. Pretty sure if somebody behind me calls I likely have at least 70% equity vs them.

someone can overcall with like tq/t8 and more combo like this, if i raise now i can price them out.

also makes this hand so much ezier to play if we pump it up.

On November 20 2008 03:27 lostaccount wrote: Show nested quote + On November 20 2008 02:22 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote:   On November 19 2008 20:07 lostaccount wrote: reason why i raise here is to isolate, dont want another player behind me to call. Pretty sure if somebody behind me calls I likely have at least 70% equity vs them. someone can overcall with like tq/t8 and more combo like this, if i raise now i can price them out.

Which is why I left myself an out with "likely". 70% may be a bit generous as well. I don't expect people to slowplay this flop very often vs 2 players and there are not many hands I'm terrible afraid of when they flat call. Those hands with good equity are extremely easy to play against and I will not lose ANY money vs them, making them coming into the pot a profitable situations.

Also, I never imagine myself winning a big pot in this situation. I also do not want to open the opportunity for me to lose a medium to semi-big pot by raising when the situations that are good vs me vs a raise-calling range aren't really high in numbers because most weaker hands that actually call us have straight draw outs, the rest of the hands have us absolutely crushed. I'd imagine if you ran that combinations, the value hands may outnumber the hands you beat but have reasonable equity vs you. Given that I never imagine myself winning a big pot in this situation, I'd rather take a more passive, get to showdown, safe route and win/lose a small pot. No sense in bloating the pot where my hand is likely good but not particularly strong, and definitely not strong vs somebody's raise calling/3betting range.

On November 20 2008 03:28 lostaccount wrote: also makes this hand so much ezier to play if we pump it up.

If by easier you mean more dangerous but easier to fold, then I agree. I don't think you are ever in a tough situation regardless of your action. I don't think the decisions are particularly difficult regardless of what the board brings. And if you're beat, you'll lose similar amounts of money. One results with you getting to showdown vs a much weaker range a much larger percentage of the time.

i agree with your thinking freak but i just hate playing multiway pots oop if player behind calls, i prefer isolating but i don't know if its the optimal play.

definitely not a chop salad..ddddefinitely not a chop salad

raising here is cute as a 'value-bluff' because you present so much strength to the donker as there are two left to act behind you. I like it here on a rainbow board rather than on a 2suited, where the guy could get feisty and slam it in with the FD anyway.

but similarly since this board is a rainbow, the scariest cards are the most obvious ones so raising to 'protect' or for strict value is not good either

calling and playing it from behind seems acceptable also